The case that this tier is overtuned

02/08/2013 08:30 AMPosted by Erras
You don't get better because Blizzard makes punishing content, you get frustrated and lose interest.


No, bad players get frustrated and quit. Good players will overcome it.


02/08/2013 08:31 AMPosted by Zinstorm


No, bad players get frustrated and quit. Good players will overcome it.


This... I can definitely see why people dislike content being this hard... but you shouldn't view it like that.

You should view it as a way to improve yourself... I know I have.


Our guild has killed more bosses than either of you and our raid dissolved in December.
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90 Orc Shaman
13550


Players are getting worse. This is partly on the players and partly on Blizzard. It's on Blizzard because the game doesn't teach the player how to play it at all and there's no transition into raiding. It's on the players because the players refuse to adapt and learn; players would rather have free epics.

The game's heroics are not too easy. It's just that those guilds are the ones with driven players. The ones who decided they were going to invest a few days learning how to play their classes and how to handle raid mechanics.

The only fight that was "overtuned" was Garalon the first night Heart of Fear released. Then he got hotfixed overnight.


Given that the top guilds steamrolled through all of the heroic raids within a few weeks of their release, and that most other guilds (50-60%) have stalled out in normal HoF, it seems silly to say that they've done a good job tuning the tier.


The top guilds always do that. Blizzard can't tune for them, otherwise nobody else would ever complete anything.

02/08/2013 08:26 AMPosted by Joosenjin
So tell me what you find better. Raids that you'll never do, but are extra challenging. Or content that is challenging, but gradually gets easier and allows you to complete the tier.


Flaw there is using the word "challenging" to describe Dragon Soul.
Edited by Hyjinx on 2/8/2013 8:42 AM PST
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100 Human Mage
10860
Honestly, that's all i'm saying. normals seem more tuned to heroics. And I'm just trying to convey that

OP, what's your specific issue on Blade Lord?


It's just where we are right now. We are ironing out the details, we have him to 7%. but things like the tightness of the enrage timers, the closeness of the tornadoes. the fact that unforeseen strike randomly seems to still cauterize me even if i'm topped off, they just seem.. over tuned.
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100 Goblin Priest
9225
Honestly, that's all i'm saying. normals seem more tuned to heroics. And I'm just trying to convey that

OP, what's your specific issue on Blade Lord?


It's just where we are right now. We are ironing out the details, we have him to 7%. but things like the tightness of the enrage timers, the closeness of the tornadoes. the fact that unforeseen strike randomly seems to still cauterize me even if i'm topped off, they just seem.. over tuned.


What's your stacking strategy? Are you stacking on the person with the red arrow? Stacking on the tanks? Stacking on a designated spot?

How are you moving the boss to deal with the tornadoes in phase 1? My guild drags him down the hall after every 2 unseen strikes.

If people are getting hit by tornadoes in phase 2, there's really nothing you can say except "do better".

Are your dps leaving a bit early (around 11-13%) to get to the other side before the boss transitions into the second half of phase 2?

If you're wiping at 7% and were able to beat Elegon's enrage (which you did) then this fight is totally doable for you, you just need to tweak the strategy a bit.
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90 Goblin Hunter
11845
Honestly, that's all i'm saying. normals seem more tuned to heroics. And I'm just trying to convey that

OP, what's your specific issue on Blade Lord?


It's just where we are right now. We are ironing out the details, we have him to 7%. but things like the tightness of the enrage timers, the closeness of the tornadoes. the fact that unforeseen strike randomly seems to still cauterize me even if i'm topped off, they just seem.. over tuned.


If everyone in your guild is as geared as you enrage shouldn't be an issue. If they are it only further points to a player based issue for your guild and not a tuning issue. Do you guys leave the 20-10% side at around 12%(depends on how many dot classes you have) step into the side windstream things and run to the other side and wait for him to fly to you? Can save 15-20 seconds of downtime easily.
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Flaw there is using the word "challenging" to describe Dragon Soul.


You killed heroic blackhorn/spine with a 5% nerf, and heroic madness with a 10% nerf. Clearly you are in the upper percentage of WoW players, but to suggest that DS provided no challenge is disingenuous.
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90 Goblin Hunter
11845


Flaw there is using the word "challenging" to describe Dragon Soul.


You killed heroic blackhorn/spine with a 5% nerf, and heroic madness with a 10% nerf. Clearly you are in the upper percentage of WoW players, but to suggest that DS provided no challenge is disingenuous.


Normal modes certainly didn't, most of the heroics weren't too hard either until you got to Blackhorn. Can check this players armory as well if you want. We killed Blackhorn at 10% I think it was and quit raiding because Spine is the worst fight Blizz has ever released that doesn't involve vehicles and the thought of progressing it was more than half our raiders could handle.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
16135
02/08/2013 08:22 AMPosted by Ikonik
If I cleared previous content (be it on this or other characters) and having issues with this content, that doesn't indicate that there might be a problem?


Unless you cleared it pre nerf no.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
SSC
12740
One of the main probelms with this tier maybe not it's tuning but how hard it's been for many to get gear. Better gear of course helps you down the content. This tier has really required alot of effort and time be put in to unlock the valor rewards plus getting valor takes longer as well. The fights themselves seem a bit overtuned but I think it maybe more the gearing then the raids themselves.

No matter what the reason, there is alot less people raiding this tier and I think that's not a real great thing myself.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
16135
02/08/2013 08:58 AMPosted by Tacobeef
I expect that they will try this again in 5.2, lose another 500k customers and then revert back to a more reasonable normal mode experience.


You forget one simple fact. Every time the nerfed stuff in Cata they lost more people. The quarter with the biggest nerf also saw the biggest loss.
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90 Orc Monk
11190
This here is kind of where i think there's a problem. We rotate players so sometimes there's a learning issue. But we do the mechanics. we stack, try to top off, etc.
The problem that I see is that these fights have a lot of dynamics, and that's great, but they also are fairly unforgiving. MY feeling is that things like raid comp or maybe loosing a dps, or maybe missing 1 or two people in a stack one time shouldn't mean a wipe. You have to be near perfect.
The argument that you should be near perfect is understandable to be able to be near perfect, but to me, that's hard mode. easy mode would be the faceroll that is lfr and hard mode would be unforgiving heroics. Normal mode, at least to me, should be that it's challenging but forgiving. You shouldn't have to have a specific raid comp in a normal encounter. You shouldn't have to min max on normal.

The idea that 'just go to lfr is demeaning. It's not like we are failures doomed to special ed because we have learning problems.


You still haven't explained what the issue is, if people are dying on transition you either need to use a 3rd healer or make sure your town healers are topping people off before and after transition. Depending on your groups DPS you may have an issue with DPS but if your team cannot complete the final phase it usually means people are dying early.

If you have a Warlock make sure that they place a portal down so your raid team can get to the other side quickly. You also need to make sure that your raid team are all using defensive CDs, health potions and lock candy to keep themselves up during that phase.

If people are getting hit by tornadoes they simply need to get better at paying attention to what is going on around them.

Around 12-14% your team needs to do their best at dotting up the boss and start running to other side (make sure they are not running directly behind a tornado), doing so makes sure your team has a better shot at getting to the other side right as the boss transitions to the other side of the room.
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100 Goblin Priest
9225
For the OP:

There are a couple of Blade Lord threads over in the Dungeon/Raid forum that could have some helpful tips for you.
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90 Gnome Mage
6345
Actually, most people who say "WoW raiding is easy" are using 3rd party Add-ons or watching videos of other guilds. Go play without add-ons and without watching videos of other's strategies and without your raid leader telling you what to do (and without vent) then return with how "easy" everything is. There will be a few of you who say "I do", but you represent nothing in terms of revenue for this game. WoW will only continue to be dominant as long as casuals play and have fun.

Also, raiding 6+ hours a week and then talking about how the encounters are "easy" have an odd sense of "easy". Regardless of "easy", it needs to be "fun"! I've cleared all the content including all but the last 2 Heroric MSV raiding minimally with good people just a night (2.5 hrs) a week (sometimes 2) and I'm not going to say it is hard, but it is for a lot of folks who don't want to raid 6+ hours a week.

I have characters in other guilds for fun. As an "ALT" in a more casual guild than my "main guild" during DS, DS was fun because a bunch of friends could get together and clear the content. That same guild can't do MSV (let alone the others) - just not enough reflexes as a lot of folks are older. They could in ICC and especially DS.

Saying LFR is for you is wrong - that is a gathering of strangers and is minimal fun. Too many idiots and folks afk. Mechanics are silly and it's just a gaggle.

The fact is there are way fewer pugs because the encounters are too unfriendly and the number of people you can carry in MoP is way worse than DS and therefore just not all that fun. I think Terrace is actually pretty fun, HoF and MSV are meh....
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90 Night Elf Druid
14660
First, it tells me that either we as players are getting worse, or that the content is too hard. !


It's a shame you offered this as the two options. lol

What seems more likely to me is that players who would be doing normal modes in previous expansions are doing LFR instead. LFR doesn't have 'the best' gear but it does generally reward you a ridiculous amount for your effort, has flexible scheduling, and doesn't really depend much on your relationship with 24 (or 9) other people. It's a ridiculously successful feature.

I'm not going to advocate getting rid of it because it'll never happen, but there's a clear lack of incentive to raid to a lot of people. It means we have trouble recruiting and I looked for 6 months before I found a guild that could actually field a 25 man, needed a melee, and didn't raid 5-9 est monday-thursday.

Actually, most people who say "WoW raiding is easy" are using 3rd party Add-ons or watching videos of other guilds. Go play without add-ons and without watching videos of other's strategies and without your raid leader telling you what to do (and without vent) then return with how "easy" everything is.


Keep in mind that these advantages are available and accessible to everyone, and the game is designed with that in mind.
Edited by Amyiss on 2/8/2013 9:28 AM PST
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90 Gnome Monk
13360
02/08/2013 07:21 AMPosted by Ikonik
players are getting worse

Nailed it.

Seriously, the playerbase is getting progressively worse. Blizzard makes no effort to get players to perform better and instead lower their standards so the players won't fail.
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90 Night Elf Druid
14660
players are getting worse

Nailed it.

Seriously, the playerbase is getting progressively worse. Blizzard makes no effort to get players to perform better and instead lower their standards so the players won't fail.


what about brawlers guild tho

i spent an hour watching three separate people get hit by devastate last night

i mean it was sad but they did eventually learn to run out of it (blaming lag the entire time)
Edited by Amyiss on 2/8/2013 9:36 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
SSC
12740
I am not sure lfr is a huge success or people just lack the ability or cann't find a guild to raid with. I haven't met too many people that enjoy doing lfr, lot's do it but it's because it's ease, not for fun.

One of the problems is imo. The shared lock out. There use to be 25 pugs all the time which people would join and get to do content. This would help them meet others that would help them and also allow them the chance to do content that may not have. Also 25 pugs encourged better play from people. If you wanted to do one, you needed to be gemmed, you needed to be enchanted, do decent and improve week to week.

If Blizzard really wants to see 25's come back and wants to see more people raiding, then end the shared lock out.
Edited by Genada on 2/8/2013 9:32 AM PST
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