The case that this tier is overtuned

90 Night Elf Priest
12800
<----- LFR is that way bud


Kinda the problem really; LFR is much TOO easy, while Normal is just a bit too hard for my level of skill at maximum effort suitable for an unpaid endeavor.

Now, I'm not really complaining, just observing. It does make me wonder if there is a reason to keep playing though. If the LFR set of bosses are trivial the second time I see them; I'm bored with LFR by week 4 or 5. But regular raid bosses being too difficult for my meager skills means I end up killing the same 1-4 normal bosses each week, and that too gets very old after a while. Do I keep paying for 6 months of subscription, while really only enjoying about a month or so of it each time?

I'll probably hang around for 5.2, and maybe the combination of LFR quantity, slight nerf to normal (we need the 10% to kill Elegon for instance), and quicker alt gearing for my associates who seem alt-addicted, will provide enough variety to make the game enjoyable at my pathetic maximal skill level... If not, I can always use the time and funds to spend more time at the pool to work on my swim times...

Maybe its just the way they intend the game to be and its no longer a suitable entertainment for me, daily-quest or hard-serious-skilled raider, and I enjoy neither in the slightest.
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90 Orc Monk
11190
02/08/2013 09:19 AMPosted by Tacobeef
So your suggestion to "hey if you can't survive the transition, just 3 heal" means they will never hit the enrage timer. If they are forced into 6 DPS, then that means their healers have to be exceptionally above average healers or they die during the high damage phase 2.


Point is a lot of the damage in phase 2 can be avoided, problem is people are having difficulties avoiding that damage.

If you are using 3 healers and your group is actually able to make it to the other side you will do just fine with the enrage timer.

The main reason why guilds even hit the enrage timer is because their group dies forcing 2-4 people to complete the last 10-20% all on their own. If the entire group is alive there shouldn't be a problem.

02/08/2013 09:19 AMPosted by Tacobeef
Stop forcing people to do stuff they don't want to do


Or you could stop raiding all together, Yes I mean it the way it sounds. Raiding is not for you if you are not willing to even try to do what it takes to complete the encounter.

02/08/2013 09:19 AMPosted by Tacobeef
Alternatively, fix the loot issue. Stop with the weighted loot nonsense that causes an 80% drop rate item to fall every single week and the 3% drop rate item to never drop. It's old. The gear acquisition rate is so dreadfully slow. The elder charms never come through with gear. The whole thing has gotten progressively worse since ICC where all items had the same item drop rate (and actually felt RANDOM). The current design is not random, it's designed to ensure needless frustration.


Blah blah blah you didn't get the loot you wanted, get over it, random is random.

Elder charms do actually work, I received loot multiple times from it, sorry you cannot just walk into an instance and get what you want 100% of the time.
Edited by Ruderlyn on 2/8/2013 9:46 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
16615
I think the debate isn't that the tier is overtuned-Blizzard has stated that it is meant to be more exclusive than prior normal modes.

The debate is, is this good for the game.

While the D&R crew has some good points about not finishing too early, that's never been an issue for me as a Normal raider-I've always had more challenges in front of me.

I also feel like the current raids put too much on the raid leader. By the time he's spent 12 hours a week (on top of his own dailies/valor cap) refining strats, listening to complaints about who is holding the group back, recruiting-he's putting in as much or more work than a heroic raider.

Those complaints about who is holding the group back are very toxic to the friend-and-family raid group. People don't want to leave for progression, they don't want to hear generalized complaints about how terrible their friends and family are, and they don't want to hear about how a busy working mom only did dailies 5 days this week.

That doesn't even touch on the population issue. We always had attrition, but we also had a constant stream of friends of friends, returning friends, and new friends coming in. That ceased entirely. There is no more "just get a warm body" because there are no pugs skilled enough to fill in.

Fights in this game used to feel engaging even when they weren't particularly hard for a skilled group. Now the game strives to challenge people who've developed a skillset and resources that make them ridiculously hard to challenge. Mechanics feel like a slap in the face, but the nerfed version feels dull-it's no wonder nerfed raids aren't popular.

Taking normal mode raiding away from the friends and family group leaves them with nothing to do together. LFR is isolating, not team-building. I still have friends in this game, but instead of spending two nights a week with them, I comment on their interesting broadcast.

With no entry raids, new raiders aren't being trained. We can all see how people won't even run LFR without the promise of relevant loot (and WOW, I doubt that is good for the game either!)-why would Blizzard expect people to run MSV when there is new and better stuff available?
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90 Orc Shaman
13750


Flaw there is using the word "challenging" to describe Dragon Soul.


You killed heroic blackhorn/spine with a 5% nerf, and heroic madness with a 10% nerf. Clearly you are in the upper percentage of WoW players, but to suggest that DS provided no challenge is disingenuous.


It really didn't, though. Almost the entirety of DS was merely numbers checks. If you could do X healing and Y dps, then you won, and those X and Y numbers weren't particularly high in Normal mode and got to be absolute jokes in both Normal and Heroic after the first couple nerfs.

02/08/2013 08:58 AMPosted by Tacobeef
This mentality that any guild can just throw away people who've been in there for years and replace with someone you don't know is mainly a heroic guild mentality. But it's not the reality for a lot of guilds out there. They would rather have the dependable guy who does 60k dps and not the jerk who shows up when he feels like it but can do 120k (mostly by cheesing mechanics, dps'ing adds and ignoring raid leader commands because "he's better than you bads").


In other words, the mentality is "Let's just not improve." You want that mentality to be capable of moving forward when it's impossible because it defeats itself.

02/08/2013 08:58 AMPosted by Tacobeef
Blizzard doesn't want average guilds clearing raids "on a schedule" they want you struggling forever and ever in the hopes that you keep your subscription going. It looks like it isn't working, so they introduced a slight nerf only when 5.2 is out. I don't think Blizzard realizes that people don't like being made to feel like they are bad.


According to you "run under the bubble" is a tough mechanic, so I can't take anything else you're posting here seriously.

You've got 2 choices for model where people aren't made to feel like they're bad. One is to make everything so easy that everyone can do it. The other is to make everything hard and let people go through it as they will. You're apparently against the latter. Do you honestly want the former?

02/08/2013 08:58 AMPosted by Tacobeef
Blizzard is requiring that you bring 10 above average players to be able to have a chance at most of the normal modes and this is the first time they've forced players to do complex dexterity mechanics along with very tight DPS enrage timers.


It's "above average" to run under a bubble, is it? Or run in a circle?

Most encounters are either or until you get to Heroics. That is, they either have "dextrous" mechanics - Vizier, Blade Lord - or shorter rages - Protecters, perhaps Garalon.

I'm not sure how you can call any Normal enrage timer "tight." A tight enrage implies that people playing close to maximum ability would have trouble meeting it. No fight on Normal has that. Maybe if you did Elegon in week 1 when your raid's item level was in the low 460s he had a tight enrage, but people in 480 gear? The enrage is a joke to that gear level if you have more than a faint clue of how to dps.

02/08/2013 09:12 AMPosted by Tacobeef
You recollect incorrectly. T11 was never wholesale nerfed - they did a few spot nerfs, but T11 heroic remained the hardest content in the game until MoP was released. Blizzard pretty much said "all you bads keep wiping in T11, all the goods get to go to Firelands". It was a huge controversy. You surely remember.


Considering you're after a better "normal mode experience," I don't see why it matters that the t11 Heroics weren't nerfed. It's not like you needed Heroic t11 gear to progress in Firelands. The Normal modes were extensively nerfed.

02/08/2013 09:19 AMPosted by Tacobeef
Another problem with this raid tier is that the DPS checks are so tight guilds are being forced to 2-heal to even hope to reach the enrage timer and often 1 of those healers is just not used to that intensity of healing required.


Maybe if those guilds had players that could learn to do a decent percentage of their potential output for the gear they were wearing, they wouldn't have to force their healers to play at maximum capacity.

02/08/2013 09:19 AMPosted by Tacobeef
So your suggestion to "hey if you can't survive the transition, just 3 heal" means they will never hit the enrage timer. If they are forced into 6 DPS, then that means their healers have to be exceptionally above average healers or they die during the high damage phase 2.


Well, yeah. If you're working from the assumption of "It's impossible for my dps to put out halfway decent numbers," then you're going to get screwed.

What you should be doing is asking and helping those players to improve.

02/08/2013 09:19 AMPosted by Tacobeef
Alternatively, fix the loot issue. Stop with the weighted loot nonsense that causes an 80% drop rate item to fall every single week and the 3% drop rate item to never drop. It's old. The gear acquisition rate is so dreadfully slow. The elder charms never come through with gear. The whole thing has gotten progressively worse since ICC where all items had the same item drop rate (and actually felt RANDOM). The current design is not random, it's designed to ensure needless frustration.


My @ss every item in ICC had the same drop rate. This is just you looking back erroneously.
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90 Troll Death Knight
11995
You make normal modes to easy and you wind up with a bunch of people hitting heroics with very little gear and not progressing or progressing very slowly. Not many players find 50 wipes per boss acceptable. That wouldn't go over well. Then if heroics become easy you'll wind up with A. People leaving due to no challenge and B. people leaving because they finish all the content and have nothing else to do.

The way they have it right now seems to be working. Tune it so, for normal modes, LFR and VP gear causes you to out gear it. This way, the more average player will be able to progress at their own pace because by the time they get there they will out gear the content already. But it also lets better players progress on challenging content because VP and LFR is so gated.

In 5.2 for example, ToT normals (at least the 1st half of the instance) will probably be tuned around 496 while the VP gear is 522 and LFR 502. Both overgear ToT Then there's I believe there will be crafted weapons of a good ilvl at the thunder forge when your faction unlocks that. So while above average players, ones around 16/16 normal, get to ToT they will progress likely at a smooth, steady rate, not getting to raid wall heroics too quickly (assuming normals tuned correctly). Then when average players get there, normally starting raiding a few weeks into it for various reasons, they likely will be more geared than the above average players and their gear should make up for taking the game more casually.

Though nothing in the game can make up for incompetency of say, not stacking on Qiang for massive attacks or dying to annihilate, and it shouldn't. There needs to still be some actual skill involved, not just showing up and rolling. If you want that, go do T14 normals when 5.2 hits.
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90 Orc Shaman
13750
02/08/2013 10:29 AMPosted by Tacobeef
You're obviously here to cause trouble and have no interest in an intelligent conversation - I suggest you fix your tone before you end up getting suspended for obvious trolling.


Considering your posting history, this makes you the biggest hypocrite I've ever seen on the forums. You haven't posted an intelligent conversation since Mists launched.

I've had the same tone for years and never been suspended for it, so I don't see why I would be this time around.

The only part of my post that could maybe be considered over the top is the last part about ICC.. but your claim there was pretty ridiculous. Nevertheless, I apologize for my use of foul language in response to your false claims. I personally witnessed several items that didn't drop for half a year in ICC, which would seem to work against your assumption that the loot system was somehow better back then. And yes, I can post an anecdote to counter your own.
Edited by Hyjinx on 2/8/2013 11:20 AM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
9305
I think a possible solution is to integrate a stacking buff for the raid (hp, dps, heals) for how many wipes to a boss have occurred.

For example, the guild on my warrior wiped several weeks on Gara'jal. We had the fight down pretty well, but the dps and heals were just not pulling the numbers they needed. "We'll be more geared next week", was the motto. Eventually after bashing our heads on this one boss people stopped showing up, myself included- It is too expensive and honestly not enjoyable.

If some kind of system was in place so that a guild has a slightly better chance of downing a boss, it will encourage people to keep raiding and have something to look forward to.

Just a thought.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
7535
The actual numbers are somewhere in this neighborhood.

Less than 2% of all players have completed Heroic content in the entire game.
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