New Seal of Justice change

85 Draenei Shaman
5930
"We finished looking at Seal of Righteousness and Justice. Righteousness we ended up buffing by 50% so it should be a good choice against 4 targets instead of 6.

Justice is much more complicated. It was intended as a PvP seal, but the damage loss is so significant and the snare just not that valuable (which is ironic when you consider Ret's history of not being able to catch things), and Burden of Guilt is there if you really do want to snare. Furthermore, just buffing Justice's damage risks Seal twisting in PvE becoming a thing, where you stack up Censure and then swap to Justice. It could be cool if designed right, but would probably just be annoying. We just don't have much room to buff Justice, and players might still forsake it in PvP.

So, we're going to redesign it and attempt to solve another problem, which is Ret's damage outside of cooldowns (which are quite potent). Justice will now proc (and Judgment will count for the proc) a stacking debuff on the target that increases the damage of your next Templar's Verdict. With 5 stacks, this will be a big hit (but not an insta-gib) and opens up some interesting decisions about how to use Holy Power, such as Inquisition or WoG, if you're trying to hold TV. While Truth + Censure will still do more sustained damage overall, there is a chance Justice will see some situational use in PvE, and we're okay with that. Justice is a Ret-only thing, so it should be a Seal they actually use. It won't snare at all, which I expect some will call a devastating nerf, but again, there's Burden of Guilt if you really need a snare."

Anybody else think they totally took a step backwards by removing the snare from SoJ? What arena paladins are taking the ranged snare talent over Fist of justice? And what rets DON'T already use SoJ?

He must be getting his facts from terrible players...
Edited by Topples on 2/8/2013 8:02 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
9970
As Ghostcrawler said in that very thread, the data comes from high-end arena players, most of whom use FoJ but very few of whom use SoJ. However, this mostly tells us that Ret can usually rely on teammates to provide snares in arena.
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90 Human Paladin
10365
hey guys we dont want you to seal twist but were gonna redesign justice so youll end up wanting to seal twist ... and you we took away your base line snare.
smh....
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1 Gnome Priest
0
Yayyyy a completely dispellable debuff effect added to SoJ.

This is going to work out really well in PvP.


What are you talking about? GC said the buff to TV damage is undispellable.
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85 Human Rogue
7590
SoJ brought utility in stopping druids from running away. Was especially useful while they were running with the flag.

Pff? Get Burden of Guilt? Pfff.
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90 Human Paladin
5780
The slow was nearly insignificant if you're running with anyone with a slow which is basically everyone. The damage just didn't keep up with truth. The new change is gonna make it so were not sitting in truth the whole time and it's more of a choice. Personally I like it, it's really gonna make use more of a threat in pvp :3 big TV crits are gonna be amazing and it's gonna make use burst harder(which is prolly gonna get nerfed at some point)
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1 Tauren Shaman
0
Yayyyy a completely dispellable debuff effect added to SoJ.

This is going to work out really well in PvP.


What are you talking about? GC said the buff to TV damage is undispellable.


He just can't read.
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90 Human Paladin
8935
So.... you guys ask for a damage buff in pvp... you get one... then you start complaining because a slow that barely anyone uses except for maybe in 1v1 situations because almost every other class has a slow in game.... I don't understand sometimes. Plus, remember all of cata that we went through without a snare? I do.
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90 Human Paladin
9505
Justice was incredibly valuable in PVP, so I have no idea where GC got that from. The trade-off of DPS loss was beyond worth it for being able to CATCH casters when paired with Long Arm of the Law.

Now for any sort of slow/snare we have to take Burden, which is annoying to lose FoJ.
Edited by Infuser on 2/9/2013 6:52 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Justice was incredibly valuable in PVP, so I have no idea where GC got that from. The trade-off of DPS loss was beyond worth it for being able to CATCH casters when paired with Long Arm of the Law.

Now for any sort of slow/snare we have to take Burden, which is annoying to lose FoJ.


Lol, nice rating
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87 Human Priest
4855
02/08/2013 10:18 PMPosted by Judaäs
big TV crits are gonna be amazing and it's gonna make use burst harder(which is prolly gonna get nerfed at some point)


This. In wings If you hit a 5 stack of justice TV, get a divine pupose proc and the crit slot machine goes 777 you will do crazy burst. Ppl are whining about this when in fact its so good it will probably get nerfed.
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90 Human Paladin
12585
That sounds awesome.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6990
02/09/2013 01:54 AMPosted by Karod
So.... you guys ask for a damage buff in pvp... you get one... then you start complaining because a slow that barely anyone uses except for maybe in 1v1 situations because almost every other class has a slow in game.... I don't understand sometimes. Plus, remember all of cata that we went through without a snare? I do.


Except it isn't a damage buff, you will still do more damage with Seal of Truth. Seal of Justice as it is on the PTR now will make your TV hit for almost a Crusader Strike on top of it's regular damage (with 5 stacks of Justice). So it is a minor increase in burst damage for a loss of sustained.
Edited by Dantekong on 2/9/2013 8:53 AM PST
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90 Human Paladin
9505

Lol, nice rating


Because rating is the only measure of class knowledge. Not, you know, playing three or four different teams a week to help RL friends also valor cap.
Edited by Infuser on 2/9/2013 9:04 AM PST
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90 Human Paladin
12585
02/09/2013 08:52 AMPosted by Dantekong
So.... you guys ask for a damage buff in pvp... you get one... then you start complaining because a slow that barely anyone uses except for maybe in 1v1 situations because almost every other class has a slow in game.... I don't understand sometimes. Plus, remember all of cata that we went through without a snare? I do.


Except it isn't a damage buff, you will still do more damage with Seal of Truth. Seal of Justice as it is on the PTR now will make your TV hit for almost a Crusader Strike on top of it's regular damage (with 5 stacks of Justice). So it is a minor increase in burst damage for a loss of sustained.


Which is something that EVERY PvPer can make use of if they know what they're doing.

Controlled Burst damage is worth 2x as much as sustained ticking damage in a PvP environment. This seal creates a dynamic that increases the value of Templar's Verdict in PvP that isn't reliant on our cooldowns. That is a huge improvement well worth the price of the snaring effect on SoJ IMO.

GC is right when he says that a portion of the community is going to complain either way, but I personally am totally supportive of this idea if for no other reason than it makes SoJ a more fun seal. It's a REALLY boring seal as is right now, it's a passive snare triggered by auto attacks where this new one is a stacking buff that can be managed to produce large controlled burst. MUCH more fun.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9260
I do like the changes to Seal of Justice and i think they do point us in the right direction for the most part. However, given the fact that it has a stacking debuff of 8 seconds to prevent seal twisting, most classes can easily run away from us long enough to drop the stacks making it a waste if not completely useless as i've noticed in the PTR. I propose a simple solution that does not affect PVE in the slightest. Burden of Guilt should be removed from our tier 2 talents and made into a baseline ability. This baseline ability should cost x mana instead of holy power so as to not mess with TV or WoG and be subject to dispels. This ability would be similar to the monk's ability "disable" and be applied within melee range of the target. Also, it should be on a separate GCD so it does not force a DPS/Heal loss when used. To replace it's position in our tier 2 talents there could be an improved version of Burden of Guilt that when used makes our next judgement spell against a target apply this snare. This would give us the choice between a CC(repent), a lower cd on a stun (FoJ), and the ability to apply a snare from a distance instead of within melee range.
Edited by Neuro on 2/9/2013 9:47 AM PST
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85 Human Rogue
7590
Justice was incredibly valuable in PVP, so I have no idea where GC got that from. The trade-off of DPS loss was beyond worth it for being able to CATCH casters when paired with Long Arm of the Law.

Now for any sort of slow/snare we have to take Burden, which is annoying to lose FoJ.


Lol, nice rating


Did you really just attack her rating when yours is low to the ground as well?
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90 Human Paladin
7285
messing around with this on a target dummy at Shrine. it's definitely still "beta".

duration is 10 seconds, and it refreshes with melee and crusader strike only. it does not get used up when you TV though. contrary, it refreshes, lol.

trying to figure out the extra damage it does. how would it appear in my combat log? i see TV's are hitting for about 45 to 50k non-crit, and my melee is hitting about 15k to 20k non-crit. there's one hand of light that's hitting around 6k non-crit consistent, and another hand of light hitting between 12k to 14k and is immediately after TV (i'm assuming this is the judgement-TV)?

hard to tell what's what.

edit - okay, the 6k hand of light accompanies CS. the 12k to 14k hand of light accompanies TV. that's it. so it appears as if the judgement buff to TV is not functioning. again, lol, beta.
Edited by Kraniel on 2/9/2013 12:44 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6800
02/09/2013 08:52 AMPosted by Dantekong
So.... you guys ask for a damage buff in pvp... you get one... then you start complaining because a slow that barely anyone uses except for maybe in 1v1 situations because almost every other class has a slow in game.... I don't understand sometimes. Plus, remember all of cata that we went through without a snare? I do.


Except it isn't a damage buff, you will still do more damage with Seal of Truth. Seal of Justice as it is on the PTR now will make your TV hit for almost a Crusader Strike on top of it's regular damage (with 5 stacks of Justice). So it is a minor increase in burst damage for a loss of sustained.


How exactly do you extrapolate "almost a crusader strike" out of 125% holy damage?

You do know holy damage is not mitigated by armor I hope? Secondly, the SoJ stack damage buff works with wings for an extra 20% damage. Thirdly, I will GLADLY trade 30 seconds on my stun for more damage any day of the week coupled with salv dispel and a good increase to my off-heals and self-heals.

You really think buffs with no trade-offs are a good idea? Do you want to become the next warrior with nerfs every patch and "hotfixes" in the meantime?

Blizzard FINALLY listened and is giving us more damage and restoring heals to a class that was hit unreasonably hard by battle fatigue coupled with MS effect and all you can say is "almost a crusader strike?" Did that actually make sense in your head before you typed it out?
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