A Retribution Seal Redesign (Beyond 5.2)

100 Blood Elf Paladin
9825
Let me preface this by saying I love ret. I love the rotation now more than I ever have in the past. I love having glowy armor and sparkling hands. I love the lore…I freaking love this spec. So I am writing this to give my 2 cents on what I think would really help make the spec even more enjoyable in the future. I am not demanding a response from any one; I just want to showcase what I can see the spec as in the future. So here goes!

Seals: These have been awkward for me since Wrath started. Are they stances? Are they more like poisons? Or just a buff? Does it matter? To me it does! I think seals have incredible potential besides just aoe, single target, or snare buffs we throw on and forget about. So I am proposing the following:

The New Seal System: Seals are now OFF the GCD and share a 15 second cool down.

Seal of Justice: Melee attacks cause a buff to the paladin, increasing the power of your templar’s verdict or the duration of your next inquisition spell by x%. Stacks 5 times. In addition, the paladin takes 10% less damage from all attacks.

Similar to what is proposed for the seal, this affects inquisition as well and stacks on the paladin instead of a debuff on the target. This also removes a necessary pvp glyph and gives us much needed damage mitigation. EDIT: If this is going to effect inquisition, It cannot be 25% per stack - that is just too great a benefit. Perhaps remove the inq component or reduce the amount per stack (keeping in mind that the damage overall of this seal needs to be strong enough to compete with truth, and in a meaningful, more bursty way). I would probably remove the inq component.

Seal of Insight: (Ret only version). Melee attacks deal additional damage as holy damage in addition to its current effects. Also, healing caused by word of glory or eternal flame is increased when used on others by x%. This effect has a 10 second internal cool down.

I am all about the new talent trees. I am all for choosing how we play our specs. The more customization, in my eyes, the better. What this change offers is giving us an IN BATTLE option to choose how we play the spec. If we love the support/off healer aspect we can choose it by applying this seal.

Seal of Truth: Same as now. In addition to current effects, when the stack reaches 5, your crusader strike will cause the target to have increased cast time to spells by x% and increase the mana cost of spells by x%.

I think it is important for us to have some kind of offensive debuff, especially against casters who are very strong against us. Having such a strong debuff requires a trade off by selecting this seal and stacking to 5. Taking this seal forgoes taking insight for the selfless healer effect, or the added burst of justice. Also note, Truth and Justice should be pretty much identical damage wise over a period of time, with truth pulling ahead in long term damage and justice pulling ahead in short term damage.

Seal of Righteousness: Same as now. In addition to its current effects, each time targets take damage from the seal, the paladin has a chance to have a free divine storm. Divine storm will heal again (like it did before, without the glyph) and to see that it gets situational pvp use, it will also snare all affected by it by 50% for 4 seconds when this seal is active.

This gives us a couple of things. It allows us to have more aoe for flags in bgs, It gives us the ability to slow down enemies in a tunnel or doorway, and it gets Divine storm back into the pvp rotation again in a fun and different way while maintaining its spot as the aoe finisher.

In addition to the above changes, I propose a new ability: Shackle. Costs 1 holy power, slows the target by 50% for x seconds. 15 yard range. We need a snare baseline. This costs a GCD and 1 holy power.

In conclusion: I think this redesign would put ret in the best place it’s ever been while providing some incredible class customization. Play the spec the way you want to play it. Do you want to be more offensive to casters? Or have stronger burst outside of CDS? Or have more cleave power? Or be more supportive with strong off heals? I can see paladins changing seals so much more often and it making a difference in play style and performance to that situation, significantly raising the skill cap of the spec. Let me know what you think!!
Edited by Thantore on 2/9/2013 9:54 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
9825
On a side note, I wanted to add this to this thread so that we can discuss ideas for the future. I think we need some better talent choices. First, I think that some of our talents can easily become glyphs: The selfless healer judgment stack for instant, mana free spells and Unbreakable spirit would be a sweet glyph. I am also disappointed about repentance basically being given to holy and taken from ret. Sure it’s a choice (theoretically) but in actuality – its not. I think repent should be returned to ret in its previous form and a silence be put in place of repentance in the talent tree. I also think bog needs to go and in its place put a trip wire type spell for bgs that snares all players who pass it in place for x seconds.

The first tier is poorly designed. I don’t know how to fix it but there is very little choice there…

The clemency tier needs to be a hand modification tier. Clemency staying as is, purity having a much, much stronger identity and purpose, and a “turn your hand spells into something more offensive” talent choice in the place of unbreakable spirit.

Selfless healer has to be replaced (because of the seal of insight change). Perhaps put an attack in its place that deals a little damage and heals a lot (holy strike!) Paladins have been asking for a melee “battle heal” type ability and I think a talent choice for it makes perfect sense for all 3 specs, so long as its potent enough to compete with the other 2 choices.

Also, the last talent tier is lackluster. Prism is king in most situations (talking pvp) but I think there is room somewhere to change it up. I think the only way to do that is to add some utility to each – nothing too major – but something that will give the other talents some use in more situations.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
I have to keep this short and sweet because my wrists hurt from a combination of gaming, shoveling snow, and posting too much on these forums, but I've always advocated fleshing out the seal system. I'd like for every baseline seal to be useful for every spec. I like the idea of a shared 15 sec CD. I'd like to switch seals occasionally, but not too much in the middle of combat. I definitely do not want any form of seal twisting.

I'd like (feel like a valley girl) for this to happen by 6.0. Make the seal system something for paladins to be proud of, a system players of other classes think looks fun and may play a part in them rerolling paladin. This probably goes for stances and stuff, too. Screw giving classes a bunch of new spells every expansion -- develop what's already there!

02/09/2013 09:51 AMPosted by Thantore
The clemency tier needs to be a hand modification tier. Clemency staying as is, purity having a much, much stronger identity and purpose, and a “turn your hand spells into something more offensive” talent choice in the place of unbreakable spirit.

Agree on the identity (or is it just strength?) of Purity and that tier 60 talents should all deal w/ hand spells.
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90 Human Paladin
14125

The New Seal System: Seals are now OFF the GCD and share a 15 second cool down.

That alone is a huge buff, and that's all Ret Paladins really need, if anything. Though a 15 second cool down is a bit much. Maybe 1.5 or 3 seconds would be fine.
Edited by Judgebringer on 2/9/2013 10:32 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
Missed the off the GCD part. That should def happen in addition to the shared CD. :D
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
9825

The New Seal System: Seals are now OFF the GCD and share a 15 second cool down.

That alone is a huge buff, and that's all Ret Paladins really need, if anything. Though a 15 second cool down is a bit much. Maybe 1.5 or 3 seconds would be fine.


The cooldown has to be rather significant to prevent seal twisting.

Think about it - a 1.5 sec cd on the seals, but off the GCD would have you macroing between justice and truth (only refreshing truth every time it was about to fall off)

I want to think of this new seal system as more than just a "buff" or a "stance." Its almost like talents or glyphs you can change in battle.

Lets say im in an arena and i see that im going against a mage and a priest. I am going to want to use truth (at least to start) because of the debuff against casters it provides. But lets say during that battle, my partner is taking far too much damage and i need to help them out. I switch to insight and have stronger off heals at the expense of slightly less damage, and I also had to give up that debuff for at least 15 seconds now. To make the benefits of each seal strong and distinct, I cannot be able to use them ALL just by macroing them to abilities and twisting.

Lets say I am playing a bg and we have a lot less healers than the other team. Maybe ill start with insight to help with off heals, walking with out FC. Then we are coming to a tunnel and a bunch of enemies are coming. I switch to righteousness and divine storm them to slow them down and peel for my FC.

These are pretty specific examples, but the point of this new system would be to encourage in battle switches of seals, significantly raising the skill cap of the class, doing something in response to your situation. If I am able to do it all, then its just too powerful.

I can see this system as something that would really define our class and make the spec WAY more enjoyable to play overall.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
I like a lot of the specific effects, but I'd get rid of the part about Inq (30 sec duration is fine with how fast Ret generates holy power) and the 10 sec restriction on the benefit of Insight doesn't make sense. You switch to a seal for an effect you only get every 10 sec?

Also, a lot of these are very Ret centric. I don't think it'd be a bad idea to make seals entirely a Ret mechanic (they are based on melee attacks after all), or only leave Holy with Insight, but do you feel the same way? If not, you might want to go back to the drawing board and try to think up effects for every baseline seal that are equally beneficial to each paladin spec.

Oh, and the chance at a free Divine Storm on SoR might get a little crazy with Divine Purpose.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
9825
02/09/2013 04:30 PMPosted by Hafleur
Oh, and the chance at a free Divine Storm on SoR might get a little crazy with Divine Purpose.


True, although we could make it so the divine storm procs (from righteousness) cant proc a divine purpose.

02/09/2013 04:30 PMPosted by Hafleur
Also, a lot of these are very Ret centric. I don't think it'd be a bad idea to make seals entirely a Ret mechanic (they are based on melee attacks after all), or only leave Holy with Insight, but do you feel the same way? If not, you might want to go back to the drawing board and try to think up effects for every baseline seal that are equally beneficial to each paladin spec.


I dont think it would be bad for ret to have this set of seals and holy and prot to not benefit entirely from this new system. (they may still have access to the seals, and the added bonus of each seal exclusive to ret). Plus, my goal here is to give ret a bit more distinction from the other specs not only in utility but functionality.

02/09/2013 04:30 PMPosted by Hafleur
I like a lot of the specific effects, but I'd get rid of the part about Inq (30 sec duration is fine with how fast Ret generates holy power) and the 10 sec restriction on the benefit of Insight doesn't make sense. You switch to a seal for an effect you only get every 10 sec?


Ironically, this 10 sec cd came from the fact that i was nervous about how powerful it would be with divine purpose lol. Perhaps 10 seconds is steep, but no cooldown would probably be far too powerful.
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1 Human Paladin
0
The problem with PVE Seal Twisting on gcd is we are now a combo class with a lot of abilities that generate HoPo with very little down time. Every gcd that doesn't generate a combo point is just pushing your dumps further back (TV/DS). By the time you enter SoJ and 5 stack it and Dump then back to Truth was it really worth the extra TV % damage at the loss of 2 gcds

To me it feels identical to old stance dancing because you are using 1gcd to enter SoR seal and A second gcd to get back to Seal of Truth ,in combat anyways

I wanted to see SoR become

A. A cleave similar to warriors and requires mana to activate the ability so it cant be spammed because our mana pool is rather shallow

B. A fan of knives ability that requires no target and also consumes mana and drains rather fast same as energy

Its odd that we have a 2nd resource (mana) that goes unused in pve

In PVP we need our Mana 4 dem 2 leet FoLight casts and /emote OOM (Im low on mana) 10-20k FoLights that are on par wit Spriest, Ele's and Boomkin healing
HOT FIX my healing 2months ago any1 ?
Edited by Hlypowahalp on 2/9/2013 9:33 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
9825
02/09/2013 09:09 PMPosted by Hlypowahalp
The problem with PVE Seal Twisting on gcd is we are now a combo class with a lot of abilities that generate HoPo with very little down time. Every gcd that doesn't generate a combo point is just pushing your dumps further back (TV/DS). By the time you enter SoJ and 5 stack it and Dump then back to Truth was it really worth the extra TV % damage at the loss of 2 gcds


This is not a plea to re-incorporate seal twisting. (thats why I am suggesting a 15 second shared CD) It is a way to make the seal system more meaningful, interactive, and fun.
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