Rogues will make you lose more Subcribers.

90 Human Mage
7525
02/09/2013 10:16 PMPosted by Punda
Continuing to justify Addypally threads will make you lose more Subscribers
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90 Troll Rogue
13995
actually with enough haste you would get 3 ambushes in 4 seconds. you have to remember that you regen energy even if you use an ability. so 3 second of regen should be able to put you past the point of getting that third ambush in at 156 energy base (180 total for the 3 ambushes).

then wait a few seconds for the kidney shot

then vanish, sap, and reset the fight with full energy.


Yes, with enough haste it can be done. But you can't get enough haste in tyrannical. Maybe you can in the elite set but you can't do it in less. And all that reforging that would be required would be done to subtlety's worst stat. Three ambushes may be nice but it's not nice enough for that. Among other things reforging like that is going to make it unlikely you'll be getting even one crit out of that attack string.
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They can easily tone us down by just nerfing sanguinary veins

The buff to it on the PTR is silly, we don't need it
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Subterfuge is broken.

You can literally open with 3 ambushes, kidney the moment you're visible, pool energy (like 2-3 seconds with relentless strikes / SnD), vanish, 3 more invisible ambushes, and then Bomb>Dance on someones face, and you'd have only even been targettable by peeling teammates for a fraction of that time, especially if they're ranged.

Throw in 30yrd range openners, and you could swap the moment they pop defensives and not lose any momentum.

I imagine it's fun as hell for rogue players.
But it's broken.

lolwut
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85 Gnome Rogue
2110
OK, lets break this down correctly:

Rogue GCD = 1 second (not 1.5).
Base energy regen = 10e/s.
Energetic Recovery = 8e/2s.
Haste = nothing because you don't gear for haste in PvP.
Sub Base energy = 100.
PvP set bonus = +30 (130 total).

So, you're in stealth, you premed Recup [[EDIT: You Premed SnD, not Recup]] and open with a full energy bar with ER running.

GCD 1: You're a moron because you're opening with Ambush and no bleed up.
130e - 60e = 70e.
+ 18e = 88e. Why 18 e? Because you think 8e this tick is somehow better than 8e next tick.

GCD 2: You're still Ambushing without SV running....
88 - 60e = 28e.
+10e = 38e. Why 10 e? Because ER/Recup ticks once per 2 seconds.

GCD 3: 38e, let's Ambush, right?!?!
You Ambush a third time: FAIL! "I don't have enough energy."
+18e = 56e.

GCD 4: You THOUGHT you'd at least have enough for Ambush on the 4th tick, even though Subterfuge has already faded. You were STILL WRONG.

---------

Who here mentioned "First you open on them and get three Ambushes, then you Vanish for a second opener, then Prep Vanish for a third, then Dance" ???

OK, you failed on the first phrase, so lets look at the rest of the sentence.

You want to blow Vanish AND Prep/Vanish to get a triple opener? Forget the fact you don't even have enough for ONE full Subterfuge, trying to burst with Prep/Vanish is flat out stupid. That's what you have Shadow Dance for, 8 seconds on a 1 minute CD vice 3s on a 2m and 3s on a 5m CD. I'd say that you're doin' it wrong, except that you probably aren't doin' it. That's FAIL #2 junior.

--------

Look, if you guys are whining about openers, you're barking up the wrong tree. What you should be worried about is Marked for Death. Here's the skinny:

Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE complains about Kidney Shot. It's stupid. Yes, it's a 6 second stun. It can also miss or be dodged/parried/blocked. Moreover, it's single target, melee range, AND requires a ramp-up.

What makes Shockwave so bad? The AoE? Yes, partly. The range? Yes, partly. The un-dodge/parry/block/miss-ability? Yes, partly. Mostly, what makes Shockwave so horrible is that it requires absolutely no ramp-up whatsoever. Warriors can mash it on CD, whether 20s or 40s, and it does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to their DPS. Kidney Shot? Yeah, those 5cp just saved you from an extra Eviscerate.

Now, lets talked Marked for Death. Free (and I do mean free, KS 25e cost is refunded in full) KS once per minute.

Now, let me be straight with you, the power in MfD is not limited to KS. There are a lot of wonderful possibilities to use with it, but we're not talking about those here, we're talking about a single, free Kidney Shot. Still melee range, still single target, still avoidable, but without a ramp-up.

If you're still worried about Rogue openers, for which they DON'T have enough energy for 3x Ambush and would be stupid for trying even if they did, you're not just a fool, you're a damned fool.

------

TL;DR:
(1) Not enough energy for 3x Ambush in Subterfuge.
(2) Stupid for doing so even if you could.
(3) Stupider still for wasting 2/5m Vanish/Prep CDs instead of a 1m Dance CD.
(4) Be worried about MfD, not 60% damage while at range and "30y range openers" that leave Rogues in the middle of no-where between Vanish/Dance.
(*) You think Rogue GCDs are 1.5s, here's a star because you're special.
Edited by Madcapmcgee on 2/11/2013 2:28 AM PST
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90 Undead Rogue
7570
Rogues are fine on PTR....no nerfs please. I don't want to level this toon to 90 for nothing...lulz.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6415
So uh, how many of you little scrublets have played on PTR?
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90 Night Elf Druid
6950

So what you're saying if he doesn't list the abilities of a class vs class its pointless? but yet you can point out a stun from a rogue and not list the ability too? your logic sir is confusing.


why would the name of the ability matter when i spelled out exactly what it does? you're confusing yourself
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31 Tauren Paladin
2955
I usually say "in be4 30 rogues come in your thread" to op, if I can make 1st page post, but Im late on this one =\
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90 Night Elf Druid
4230
your name is horrendous
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I think the best opener you will get if specced Prey on the Weak and Marked for Death will go:

Premed
Slice and Dice
Garrote
Cheap Shot
Ambush
Eviscerate
Marked for Death
Eviscerate

Doing it this way will give you +10% from Master of Subtlety, +10% from PotW, and +20% from SV all while having Find Weakness up. Get lucky with the crits and you very well maybe kill someone in 6 seconds. I will be popping my Synapse Springs during this time also. If they don't die you will most likely force some sort of Def CD / Trinket. In which case you can try for a restealth and start the process all over again. All this without popping any CD other than Marked for Death.
Edited by Newkie on 2/10/2013 5:44 PM PST
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85 Gnome Rogue
2110
Premed
Slice and Dice
Garrote
Cheap Shot
Ambush
Eviscerate
Marked for Death
Eviscerate


130-45 (Garrote) = 85
+ 18 = 103
- 40 (CS) = 63
+10 = 83
- 60 (Ambush) = 23
+ 18 = 41
- 25 (Evis) + 25 (Relentless Strikes) = 41
+ 10 = 61
- 25 (MfD->Evis) + 25 (Relentless Strikes) = 41
+ 18 = 79.

Yup, sounds like a best case scenerio. Even then though, Garrote does minimal damage, Cheap Shot essentially does none. Can 1 Ambush and 2 Eviscerates kill someone? Even if they crit?

Largest PvP Evis crit I heard of was 110,000, and Ambush hits/crits for less. You could probably kill someone wounded or not geared.

The real value would be in still having 79 energy left afterwards, pretty optimal.
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90 Pandaren Monk
13385
I think the best opener you will get if specced Prey on the Weak and Marked for Death will go:

Premed
Slice and Dice
Garrote
Cheap Shot
Ambush
Eviscerate
Marked for Death
Eviscerate

Doing it this way will give you +10% from Master of Subtlety, +10% from PotW, and +20% from SV all while having Find Weakness up. Get lucky with the crits and you very well maybe kill someone in 6 seconds. I will be popping my Synapse Springs during this time also. If they don't die you will most likely force some sort of Def CD / Trinket. In which case you can try for a restealth and start the process all over again. All this without popping any CD other than Marked for Death.


This is the real problem. Rehearsed openers that probably won't kill someone, but 'will' drop them lower than 50%. And as everybody on these forums enjoys reminding everybody else, this isn't a 1v1 game. So the rogue's partner is also blasting the kill target while cc'ing the kill target's healer (who has to trinket, only to go straight into a blind, or some other instant cc) and the rogue's healer is giving the same treatment to the kill target's dps partner (CC that if trinketed is followed by another instant cc). The kill target, of course, burns every defensive they have plus trinket to try to live since the rogue team selected them as kill target due to their lack of immunity (iceblock/bubble/etc.).

The rogue team's opener out of stealth can't be so strong that it makes the healer have to trinket. That's basically it in a nutshell. If it does, it changes the meta-game completely. It boosts the value of hpallys sky-high and removes the value of classes that have no immunity and take higher than usual damage (shaman comes to mind).

Just in general gaming terms, it's simply too gamebreaking to be able to come out of stealth and incapacitate an opponent for an extended period of time while dealing HIGH damage at the same time and then being able to follow that up by sitting on them and preventing most if not all casting outside of instants. It is extremely poor design for a class/spec like that to have high burst. Burst should be reserved for those with either poor uptime or no control.

Rogues should do reduced damage while the target is under one of the rogue's cc effects. So they could burst high only while the target is cc'ed by a teammate OR low burst but high control using their own cc. Add in better survivability and that's a better pvp design.
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90 Human Monk
10260
Rogues should not have recieved any buffs at all from the 5.1 state. They are fine as they are, the problem is other classes (warriors, hunters, spreists,etc..) all needed nerfs. By comparing to those classes rogues thought they needed buffs, but in fact they just needed those classes nerfed. Now that rogues are getting buffed the game will likely be unplayable again.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6085
I tried everyone, I tried. Not only me in fact. lot of the community tried to tell the developers how rogues were on ptr so that they could fix them before live.

Now, starting tomorrow. You will all see what we have been talking about.

Good Job blizzard. I bet anyone 5 dollars that they will lose subscribers again this quarter.

Just like they did with warriors in 5.0 and 5.2
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90 Human Hunter
3935
Rogues should not have recieved any buffs at all from the 5.1 state.


A bit more mobility maybe.
Edited by Arrowset on 3/4/2013 2:24 PM PST
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90 Troll Hunter
12945
Rogues have been insanely OP for almost every single arena season to date starting back in BC in season 1.

Alot of the developer's and pvp balance team play rogue as their main(when they aren't playing mages). There is a reason why rogues have been a top 3 pvp class for every single arena season except 2 and why RMP has consistently been one of the best arena comps(dev's even said in the past they wish all arena was RMP).

One bad season(which means rogues are mid pack) and all the fotm re-rollers think the sky is falling and that their class is somehow doomed.
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18 Human Hunter
3910
And the circle is complete. Back to cata we go!!

Rogues, hunters and mages OP again!. GJ Greg Street!!
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90 Undead Priest
4025
I think it's sooo funny that people are qqing about rogues, we finally get back on the map and everyone wants to cry about it. Instead of crying about it learn to defend against them. It's people like you who ruin the game. who every single class you lose to you suppose it's because they're op and need a nerf, maybe it's actually you and you just suck.
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