Is melee growing squishier than ranged?

90 Troll Druid
8670
I don't see how anyone can say mages are tanky, they absorb with ib and stack resilience but don't heal except with cold snap (evocation if glyph taken). If I try to tank a warrior or dk or really any melee on my mage I go down way faster than this toon or my spriest partner. If you consider ice block to be tanking I guess you could say they are tanky but I have to use my roots and snares otherwise, melee uptime is a very bad thing on a mage, although to be fair it's bad on any caster. In twos with a dps partner and no evocation glyph, you can't tank damage, you have to burst the other team down or rely on cc and craftiness to avoid damage. On this toon I can kind of reset the fight by healing myself up while I kite. So no, I don't think mages are tanky, but they have good survival with the tools they have, not denying that. (There's a reason blink breaks stuns though)

I should add that currently I believe warriors are the tankiest class in the game. second wind with defensive stance and throw shield wall on top of that and you have a very tanky person. This may change in 5.2 with the nerfs but its needed IMO. Dks are like melee mages in that they can't really tank damage and have to use abilities to control the fight (and they have the most offensive sustained pressure in the game which helps in that if someone is taking a ton of damage they have to play more defensively). Rogues also have so much control that they don't have to be tanky to survive. In short, it's not about tankiness in balance, it should be about survival, and that can be accomplished in a number of ways.
Edited by Halfatree on 2/9/2013 11:04 PM PST
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90 Undead Mage
8440
Considering how much uptime every melee can muster with relative ease on a ranged you're lucky its so skewed in favor of melee.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
6890
02/09/2013 08:01 PMPosted by Yohso
Frost mages used to be known for having to hard cast which is why they relied so much on CC, kiting and being "tanky".


I assume that was directed towards me, and I'm fire. And mages aren't tanky, they just kite well. I die in a 2-3 seconds of a warrior hitting me in one shot macro mode. Same would go for frost. The only reason we live is because of kiting / defensive cds.

A skilled warrior would look for the right time with the CDs and rage necessary to counterplay our CDs and kiting.

If you, as a rogue, are having issues with killing a mage, it's understandable due to your current state, but it's definitely doable. It's all about your CD management, and most rogues are terrible at it. If you don't cloak when they are about to deep and trinket when they do deep, and smoke when they go for a shatter, and don't blind during mirror images, than it is very possible for you to win. You're just not doing that.


Blah blah blah "It's not that we're overpowered, it's just you're not good enough to counter us which makes us LOOk overpowered" *Trollface.jpg*

Are you sure you're not Ghostcrawler's alt?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6415
02/09/2013 11:06 PMPosted by Cärde
Considering how much uptime every melee can muster with relative ease on a ranged you're lucky its so skewed in favor of melee.


Yeah that's the thing, I wouldn't mind melee having more mitigation if I could actually make some freaking distance and cast, it almost seems to be arbitrary for melee to have uptime now regardless of how badly they play.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6415
Uh you mean right now rogues are just absurd? That's good to hear you agree with high rated players like Affx and Vilefic who present cogent, concise arguments on the issue.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6415
02/10/2013 06:49 AMPosted by Sanctifiêd


Yeah that's the thing, I wouldn't mind melee having more mitigation if I could actually make some freaking distance and cast, it almost seems to be arbitrary for melee to have uptime now regardless of how badly they play.


it's a good thing casters dont cast anymore then, at least, not like they used to.


Yeah it's a symptom of an arms-race problem in a way, melee get more uptime, interrupts (and interrupt negation mechanics) become more plentiful, casters in turn get more instant casts and ways to farm instant casts. It's silly, I know people who play melee don't like sitting in roots and people who play casters don't like either feeling squishy or like they can't make any distance regardless of how well they play but unfortunately the less time you spend on your target it has to be able to get damage out in other ways.

I don't particularly like the number of instant casts and all the instant damage now and I don't like the almost arbitrary uptime and mobility melee get, as well as the tools melee keep getting given to feel as if they have a recourse against those who have made distance. I think it should be more a case of if you outplay someone you should be able to have uptime (as a melee), it shouldn't be a case of mandatory uptime for melee, just as it shouldn't be a case of mandatory ranging for casters.
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85 Undead Rogue
6550
Melee doesn't get taken to RBGs all that often because...
1) They usually lack CC.
2) They usually lack team fight abilities. DKs are almost necessary because of Grip and Gorefiend's. Nobody else really brings that stuff except maybe rogues, who can sap n cap and have smoke bomb.
3) Switches can be done much quicker with a ranged comp than a team of melee characters due to travel time.
4) In RBG situations, melee has to be on the target which can lead to them getting a little bit too far out and being out of position.

It's really more about how BGs are set up than ranged vs melee.

People don't spam instants and do full damage (except maybe NT mages). Having a melee on a ranged makes it tough to get casts off, which is why you don't see them casting a whole lot with someone on them... plus... they can't just sit there and tank the damage because if they're going toe to toe like that the melee will win EVERY time unless they're completely terrible.

Casters and DPS are both very squishy right now. Someone mentioned mages being really tanky, but if there's a warrior, enhancement shaman, or hunter they get absolutely wrecked. Boomkins are very squish. Elemental is the squishiest spec in the game. Locks and Shadow Priests are both kind of tanky. They have awful mobility, so they need to be able to take damage. However, both will go down quick without CDs up.

Warriors are pretty tanky right now. DK is good against casters but blows against melee. Rogue and WW are very squish. Feral isn't in a bad spot. Ret is squish.
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80 Human Priest
3225
The problem isn't squishy vs. non-squishy. The problem is the way damage in this game is done now in pvp. We saw this start in WOTLK, and it has just hit new levels of stupid.

The game has evolved to a place where mitigating damage has not kept up with evading damage. Now evading damage and flat out being immune to it are the only ways to effectively survive pvp.

If you give a toolset to mitigate damage it's going to be overpowered if it gives you good survival because it has to be to survive the 100k hits. This is why people have been screaming about warriors.
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90 Orc Shaman
9080
But in what war did foot soldiers outlive archers?


Troy, I believe.


hrm.....the roman legions were fairly efficient at not letting their melee die.....heck they were OP cept against horse archers and other cav(once stirrups rolled through)
Edited by Sledgehammer on 2/10/2013 9:11 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Priest
8950
02/09/2013 06:56 PMPosted by Cricys
The biggest problem is most of them barely cast anymore, and when they do they can do it while moving.


Shut up
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90 Human Warrior
6170
02/10/2013 12:23 PMPosted by Avyris
The biggest problem is most of them barely cast anymore, and when they do they can do it while moving.


Shut up


Is it that time of the month? Take your frustrations out on ghosty, he seems to agree.
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100 Night Elf Druid
5355
02/10/2013 12:23 PMPosted by Avyris
The biggest problem is most of them barely cast anymore, and when they do they can do it while moving.




not everyone
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90 Night Elf Mage
6645

Mages are definiltey more tanky than most melee. Once 5.2 drops they will be tankier than even Warriors.

k, mages biggest problem definitely isn't survivability, and blizzard definitely isn't nerfing our survivability more in 5.2.
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90 Human Paladin
6815
Tbh, I have noticed this and agree. Melee are supposed to have more defense because we aren't on our target all the time. We have like a 5 yard given range to attack. Range can vary from 30-40 range they can attack. I was thinking maybe increase the Resilience on all the melee gear? Not by too much, but enough to make a bit of a difference.
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90 Night Elf Mage
6645

Blah blah blah "It's not that we're overpowered, it's just you're not good enough to counter us which makes us LOOk overpowered" *Trollface.jpg*

Are you sure you're not Ghostcrawler's alt?


I'm sure if I played like a chimp against rogues, then rogues would seem OP to me.

What is bugging you really? The fact that PVP really is that way, or the fact that you are obviously a DK, which is nothing short of a magi's bane, and yet you're unable to defeat one?
Edited by Yohso on 2/10/2013 1:52 PM PST
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90 Human Warrior
11020
02/10/2013 01:49 PMPosted by Mvp
Tbh, I have noticed this and agree. Melee are supposed to have more defense because we aren't on our target all the time. We have like a 5 yard given range to attack. Range can vary from 30-40 range they can attack. I was thinking maybe increase the Resilience on all the melee gear? Not by too much, but enough to make a bit of a difference.


That or have your armor type determine what your base resil is.
Edited by Faust on 2/10/2013 2:22 PM PST
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100 Draenei Death Knight
15350

Blah blah blah "It's not that we're overpowered, it's just you're not good enough to counter us which makes us LOOk overpowered" *Trollface.jpg*

Are you sure you're not Ghostcrawler's alt?


I'm sure if I played like a chimp against rogues, then rogues would seem OP to me.

What is bugging you really? The fact that PVP really is that way, or the fact that you are obviously a DK, which is nothing short of a magi's bane, and yet you're unable to defeat one?


You need to use your blanket more on dks, out side of DG and AMS dks aren't vs mages short of having a Hpally to focus you, and funny thing you can blink more often then we can DG, and AMS is only up for 5 out of every 45 secs, Deep is on a 30 sec CD, we have no counter to polly, we can't break Ice block, O and CS locks us out of EVERY SINGLE defensive we have and neuters a good portion of our dmg. Not to mention roots are our major bane.
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