Blacksmithing in 5.2: A Compromise

90 Dwarf Paladin
3785
So, as we all know in 5.2 there will be a quick-level feature akin to The Tillers cooking trainer, where you can craft yourself 1-500 using nothing but ghost iron and trained recipes.

I understand the need for this - Blacksmithing having one of the best stat-perks in crafting at the moment, and going to play a much bigger role with the Lightning Forge in 5.2, making players go farm old mats in CRZs with low node respawn rates to cover nilla plus three expansions of content to get into relevant stuff is quite a drag. I assume Blizzard intends to do something similar with all professions in the future to allow players to not want to pull out their hair when changing professions.

That being said, a lot of current smiths take a lot of pride in their profession, recipe collections, and the work we've had keeping smithing when it was not the best statistical profession to have. I propose something which will keep the original leveling process in tact for those who want to put in the extra effort, or skip-able for those who just don't care. Much like cooking organized recipes by their land of origin / expansion, and had a new category for the quick-leveling recipes, blacksmithing could be divided into historical and current categories, each with their own leveling requirements similar to the six ways of cooking in Pandaria. Make all Pandaria smithing recipes the 525-600 skill section, and allow the fast levelers to make use of them. Then in future expansions, the 600-675 segment will be what is leveled up, and the new recipes will be contained there.

This would mean those who make use of the quick leveling feature will get to make current gear, but will not be able to learn the discovered plans or trained plans of past content without taking the extra time and effort to do so the long, painful way that current smiths have in order to level up the independent sections of older content. It will provide us with the ability to make more useful gear for Transmog without feeling that all our hard work can be made up by anyone in 30 minutes of crafting, but still obtainable for those who want to put in a little extra effort.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
12365
I don't mind the quick leveling idea as it leaves out rare and expensive patterns. My guess is that those who use BS or other crafting professions to make decent coin will continue to do so, those that don't know how to make coin, won't use it much. It's pretty much been like that since Vanilla. So you'll get a rash of peeps leveling it to get the pattern for their one weapon with little else to show for it. That being said, there really are only a handful of BS patterns worth making this expac and there's so much competition on my server, that there is no profit in current patterns.
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91 Blood Elf Rogue
15975
So, as we all know in 5.2 there will be a quick-level feature akin to The Tillers cooking trainer, where you can craft yourself 1-500 using nothing but ghost iron and trained recipes.


Just because it's in the files, doesn't mean it will go live. In fact, I highly doubt it will go live with 5.2. MAYBE 5.3, but not 5.2.
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23 Undead Priest
340
I think it needs more lore design. Making a bunch of mining picks is stupid. Making exotic (and useless to anyone but the questgivers) items that feed into a story, like helping goblins repair their zeppelin, sounds a lot more fun. So hey, 100 ghost iron bar makes 1 zeppelin gondola. 50 ghost iron makes 1 propeller blade etc.
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85 Undead Priest
10240
02/12/2013 02:01 AMPosted by Howlinwolf
I think it needs more lore design. Making a bunch of mining picks is stupid. Making exotic (and useless to anyone but the questgivers) items that feed into a story, like helping goblins repair their zeppelin, sounds a lot more fun. So hey, 100 ghost iron bar makes 1 zeppelin gondola. 50 ghost iron makes 1 propeller blade etc.


The idea would be very nice !!! But doubt Blizz will put the work into it.

Also anyone know how many Ghost Iron bars will it take to go from 1 - 525 with the new method ?
Edited by Anaamika on 2/12/2013 2:22 PM PST
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100 Human Paladin
17050
Is this serious? This will make low level mats worthless. Terrible idea. Leveling a profession shouldn't be trivial.
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80 Blood Elf Death Knight
11715
02/13/2013 07:59 PMPosted by Brudarek
Is this serious? This will make low level mats worthless. Terrible idea. Leveling a profession shouldn't be trivial.


I think it should be trivial so that you can pick and choose as you want - there are still downsides to changing professions mostly tied to the loss of other learnt recipes, but lets be realistic this doesnt make it trivial just not annoying since you still need a considerable investment of resources.

It also prevents certain AH markets from gouging on old world mats which is what most people are actually in favor of when they suggest it will make them worthless since if the old level mats are cheaper or less are required then leveling with them is better, it simply normalises the value of materials.
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100 Human Paladin
17050
So, as we all know in 5.2 there will be a quick-level feature akin to The Tillers cooking trainer, where you can craft yourself 1-500 using nothing but ghost iron and trained recipes.


Just because it's in the files, doesn't mean it will go live. In fact, I highly doubt it will go live with 5.2. MAYBE 5.3, but not 5.2.


It shouldn't be allowed to go live ever if they want WoW to continue to have an economy.
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100 Human Paladin
aus
19435
02/14/2013 09:24 PMPosted by Brudarek
It shouldn't be allowed to go live ever if they want WoW to continue to have an economy.


This is the 2nd time you have said that.

OK more ghost iron gets used by people leveling BS. Meaningless considering how much ghost iron gets used for JC etc.

Less lower level mats are needed, Ok the economy for those will be affected. So essentially your talking about how profitable it is for you as a 90 to farm the mats. Sorry care factor zero.
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90 Tauren Druid
0
So, as we all know in 5.2 there will be a quick-level feature akin to The Tillers cooking trainer, where you can craft yourself 1-500 using nothing but ghost iron and trained recipes.


Just because it's in the files, doesn't mean it will go live. In fact, I highly doubt it will go live with 5.2. MAYBE 5.3, but not 5.2.

I would really hope it doesn't go live. I think the point of the discussion here is to help influence the decision to let such a system go live.

02/14/2013 10:52 PMPosted by Mate
It shouldn't be allowed to go live ever if they want WoW to continue to have an economy.


This is the 2nd time you have said that.

OK more ghost iron gets used by people leveling BS. Meaningless considering how much ghost iron gets used for JC etc.

Less lower level mats are needed, Ok the economy for those will be affected. So essentially your talking about how profitable it is for you as a 90 to farm the mats. Sorry care factor zero.

No, he's right and it shouldn't go live and if he needs to say it twice, fine. Ghost iron ore isn't the issue. It's quite readily available with the current node density and respawn rates. I'm not worried about ghost iron suddenly becoming scarce. The issue is with the low level ore.

If you're a miner and you spend any time out in the world, you probably tap nodes as you go by and sell stacks. I do because it's good money for a relatively small amount of effort. It makes good money because not every one is willing to stop and mine so since the mats are rare, they sell well as long as there is demand. If you remove the demand by allowing the profession to be ignored til you're 90, then powerleveled with MoP-only mats, you've destroyed the market for those low level ores by removing the demand for them. This means no income (incentive) for miners who actually go out and mine anywhere other than in Pandaria. This is a problem.

The solution is not to negate the entire ore economy, but rather to fix the actual problem: a handful of leveling bottlenecks. You can fix these in two ways: 1) reduce the mats on key recipes at those bottlenecks, or do what they really should do and increase the respawn rates and node density of low level mats so they can be farmed easily. None of those items available to crafters using mats from 1-85 level zones is gamebreaking, so making them more easily available would serve only to make AH prices slightly cheaper, but make self-farming much much more viable. This preserves the economy, preserves the incentive for gatherers to gather, and fixes the problem of some professions sucking to level up. Why not create parity with the system in MoP that's been so successful with regards to professions, rather than suggesting this sloppy solution?
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So, as we all know in 5.2 there will be a quick-level feature akin to The Tillers cooking trainer, where you can craft yourself 1-500 using nothing but ghost iron and trained recipes.


Just because it's in the files, doesn't mean it will go live. In fact, I highly doubt it will go live with 5.2. MAYBE 5.3, but not 5.2.

The recipes are implemented on the PTR.

http://i49.tinypic.com/2v9uh06.png

I don't see any reason they'd take them back out before it goes live.
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I'm not in favor of this change.

Before I go into my reasoning, I'll preface by saying my BS is already 600, I do not deal in low level mats, and am established where I play so I don't need to gather for gold. In fact the change would actually benefit me as it'd drop the price on lower level mats that I use for other purposes (making transmog, ect)

I fear what this will do to new players.

When starting out the easiest, and I think best, way to make gold is farming and selling low level mats as you level. Longtime players on a new server have other options (basically selling pets or a transfer with gold) but brand new players don't have much else. Low level cooking materials no longer sell due to MoP cooking changes. Enchanting materials don't work well due to the cost of leveling the trade. Gathering is the way to go, and those new players are going to be hurting when it comes to buying decent bags and riding skills with changes like this implimented.

If it must go in I do hope the number of bars required is fairly high so that players would at least have to consider using oldschool metals.
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90 Pandaren Monk
10695
I think this is another problem that is strongly tied to the dying realms problem. The rarer mats are just simply not available to buy.

Im not a huge fan of this idea, or at least the implementation and i do agree with consortium that if this is how blizzard wants to handle it that the ghost iron bar cost needs to be significantly increased. I never really had a problem with blacksmithing but Leatherworking was a HUUUUUGE pain to level because the mats simply were not available at any price it took a long time of spaming trade offering many times over the "market value" till i finally offered high enough that someone went out and farmed what i needed.

Ultimately I think something more like the ink trader would be a more elegant solution.

I dont really care to much for this change though I certainly don't forsee the huge extreme negatives others are claiming. Yes the lower end materials markets will be hurt but honestly they are artificially inflated by the majority of the populations aversion to doing old world things. There aren't a whole lot of market factors at play with these materials, Its person A going "hey there is no copper bars on the AH ill go farm some and post them for 30g each" then person B is leveling blacksmithing and needs copper bars and since there's little to no competition the bars go for w/e price person A makes up and person B really has no choice. Alternatively person C buys all the bars for 30g each and reposts them for 50g each. While i have nothing really against this its hardly compelling gameplay that needs to be protected.

I think the biggest issue is new players but I dont see this as to much of a problem for them either since I think the natural flow of things leads you to pair a gathering profession with a crafting profession(IE mining with blacksmithing, herb/aclh).

At the end of the day the old world materials market is pretty insignificant in the scheme of things. Those who farm them now for profit could make similar profits from current mats.
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100 Human Paladin
aus
19435
02/14/2013 11:42 PMPosted by Maeday
This means no income (incentive) for miners who actually go out and mine anywhere other than in Pandaria. This is a problem.


Yes but where is the income coming from? People leveling the very expensive Blacksmithing.

Again things should not be kept the same just to give you a good income.
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The recipes are implemented on the PTR.

http://i49.tinypic.com/2v9uh06.png

I don't see any reason they'd take them back out before it goes live.


Well one saving grace about this is the level requirement. I'll have to copy to the PTR so I can have a closer look and formulate a more concrete opinion.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
3015
So long as the quantity of ghost iron needed for this is high enough to make people still prefer oldschool materials, then this is a fantastic addition to the game. As it would remove the bottlenecks, caused from a complete absence of materials.

For example, if it takes 5 Cobalt bars to get a skillup vs 30 Ghost Iron bars, I'd naturally prefer to use Cobalt if it is available and not being gouged.

But if not, well, I can throw down some extra Gs and get through this bottleneck despite a complete absence of Cobalt in the market.

Plus this would marginally increase the demand for Ghost Iron. Which is a good thing, as the stuff has dropped in prices across all servers and is getting dangerously close to vendor floor... which is patently absurd for a current primary resource. (I profit off this... cheap ore is a win for me... but it is still crazy low)
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90 Orc Warlock
12705
I wouldnt be surprised if they put this to a once a day cd. You would still have to use old world mats if you wanted to power level. But you could get past the rough parts using your cd.
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90 Human Warrior
10200
What is so bad about a quicker way to level blacksmithing honestly im glad they are doing it ...i dont see anything wrong giving people a easier way to level something without having to spend hours on hours to do so i dont know how many people would agree but leveling from 300-450 is a pain i had to do it 3 times ...and from the people who are talking about loosing a profit are you forgetting about jc's and eng's !!!!!!
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100 Pandaren Priest
17495
It won't make low-level metals worthless. It will lock their cost at being equal to ghost iron or less. That's fine. It's really dumb that farming fel iron is likely to be more profitable than current materials. And even at current prices, there are still sections where it'd cheaper to level using old-world mats instead of ghost iron.

All in all, the only complaint I have about the new system is that all crafting professions should get a catch-up method released at the same time.
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02/15/2013 11:25 AMPosted by Savix
What is so bad about a quicker way to level blacksmithing honestly im glad they are doing it ...i dont see anything wrong giving people a easier way to level something without having to spend hours on hours to do so i dont know how many people would agree but leveling from 300-450 is a pain i had to do it 3 times ...and from the people who are talking about loosing a profit are you forgetting about jc's and eng's !!!!!!


Not forgetting about it at all, but I do see the BS change as a taste of things to come.
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