Low DPS prot paladin - help please!

100 Human Paladin
14865
So, my DPS in raids is apparently awful. I could use a little advice getting it up to speed as a 25-man raid tank.

Issues I know about:

1. I pay (too much?) attention to the raid. I sometimes take a sub-optimal (damage wise) level 90 talent so that I can heal the raid. I find myself compensating for healers often, sometimes even spending my holy power to heal someone who's about to die when I'm not in danger. That last situation is more rare but it does happen.

2. 25-man bosses hit harder and I don't feel comfortable with lesser amounts of mastery. Is my gear all messed up? Ignore the strength trinket, that's for soloing. Normally I use the Elegon mastery trinket in that slot.

Here's some parses to look at:

HoF full clear: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/nvi1r90jv2igaxlh/
Terrace: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/a5xkg5r52osgcfax/

Am I really mucking with my rotation by trying to save lives? Am I flat out Doin' It Wrong?
Edited by Dekkar on 2/11/2013 12:34 PM PST
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100 Draenei Paladin
13390
Haste is roughly equal to Mastery, defensively. You can find some vague math to suggest that Mastery is slightly better for overall damage taken, Haste is slightly better for smoothing out your damage intake, etc. etc. but they're well within the margin of error. One thing that is very clear though:

Haste increases your damage dealt, and Mastery does not.

If you're concerned about your damage output, a great way to do that without sacrificing survivability is to stack Haste instead of Mastery.

Light's Hammer is actually a solid talent. Yeah yeah, it's lower DPS than Execution Sentence, but for 25's it's such a potent raid cooldown that you might as well use it on most fights.

As far as WoGing other people, I wouldn't recommend it in most cases, but if you can save someone's life without endangering your own, go for it.

Also:

Your DPS matters, but not to a tremendous extent, especially in a 25-man where you make up a much much lower portion of the overall raid damage.
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100 Human Paladin
14735
02/11/2013 12:33 PMPosted by Dekkar
I sometimes take a sub-optimal (damage wise) level 90 talent so that I can heal the raid.


Nothing wrong with this, it's not that big a DPS loss. In fact, it doesn't actually take very many targets for LH to beat ES. (I don't think there are any situations where you should go Holy Prism at the moment, though, if that's what you're talking about.)

I would note that on some fights your level 75 talent choice can influence your damage rather a lot. Using Divine Purpose (instead of SW or HA) can be a moderate DPS loss, because SW/HA can sync up with Heroism or other appropriate burn phases in the encounter where the bulk of the damage is done. Especially with so many tank swap fights, being able to reliably sync up your damage bonuses with when you've got a huge Vengeance stack (or the boss has a big debuff) is quite a boost over smaller, "always-on" random procs.

02/11/2013 12:33 PMPosted by Dekkar
25-man bosses hit harder and I don't feel comfortable with lesser amounts of mastery. Is my gear all messed up? Ignore the strength trinket, that's for soloing. Normally I use the Elegon mastery trinket in that slot.


Mastery makes your ShoRs stronger. Haste, on the other hand, would make your ShoRs occur more often.

How frequently do you actually die with ShoR up? I would guess it's not that often. If that's the case, why are you gearing towards making ShoR stronger, instead of gearing towards having it up more frequently?

Note that I'm not necessarily saying you should switch from mastery to haste, I'm just saying maybe you should examine your rationale for not doing so. There are a few good reasons to have mastery (e.g. the higher block rate for fights like Shek'zeer, the fact that you may not have good opportunities to get plate haste gear, for fights like Sha of Fear where the dangerous moments are predictable, etc).

Finally, keep in mind that being "suboptimal" is on a totally different scale if you're stacking mastery. You're simply probably never going to rank in WoL parses and you're going to look really low on stuff like epeenbot, because you're being compared to paladins that stack haste. That isn't the end of the world, but it's something to remember (and hopefully whoever's telling you that your DPS is low is sensible enough to recognize that too).

02/11/2013 12:33 PMPosted by Dekkar
I find myself compensating for healers often, sometimes even spending my holy power to heal someone who's about to die when I'm not in danger.


Ask yourself if they're REALLY about to die. Not just if they're low on health, but if there's actually some danger mechanic coming up that might kill them. 25-mans have a pretty good healer-per-player ratio, and the times when someone genuinely doesn't have a heal coming are few and far between.

The other point I'd make is that if there are particular moments where supporting your healers would be helpful, then by all means identify those moments and help your healers - ideally with something like Light's Hammer or BoP/Sacrifice on a key target, but if that's not possible and what you really need to do is pop HA and crap out eight Eternal Flames on the raid then fine, so be it. But focus on when healers *ACTUALLY* need help vs. just indiscriminately sniping low HP players because they look like they're about to die. Your healers are doing that full-time, so let them worry about it.

Also, enchant your bp. =)
Edited by Branar on 2/11/2013 1:43 PM PST
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100 Human Paladin
14865
02/11/2013 01:37 PMPosted by Branar
Also, enchant your bp. =)


Oops! I got a new one not that long ago and I've forgotten to enchant it! Damnit! Thanks.

02/11/2013 01:37 PMPosted by Branar
Ask yourself if they're REALLY about to die. Not just if they're low on health, but if there's actually some danger mechanic coming up that might kill them. 25-mans have a pretty good healer-per-player ratio, and the times when someone genuinely doesn't have a heal coming are few and far between.


It doesn't happen often, maybe once or twice in a fight (mostly on things like Shek'zeer when a dissonance field is about to pop and someone's low, or phase 3 with OOM healers while I'm offtanking. I often take Holy Prism for situations like that because it's a fat instant heal on 5 people. The burst healing is great. Although I might be taking it too far.

How frequently do you actually die with ShoR up? I would guess it's not that often. If that's the case, why are you gearing towards making ShoR stronger, instead of gearing towards having it up more frequently?

Note that I'm not necessarily saying you should switch from mastery to haste, I'm just saying maybe you should examine your rationale for not doing so. There are a few good reasons to have mastery (e.g. the higher block rate for fights like Shek'zeer, the fact that you may not have good opportunities to get plate haste gear, for fights like Sha of Fear where the dangerous moments are predictable, etc).


Pretty much never. I don't think I've died with ShoR up except when the healers were all OOM and the raid was half dead. I guess I'm afraid by going haste I won't be able to get enough of it to make a difference. I don't have access to plate haste gear very easily because the warrior and DKs, and the ret pally eat it up. I always defer to them first, as their DPS is more important than mine. Also, I'd like to know if my 4pc bonus factors into whether I should go for mastery or haste?

My biggest question now is this:
Is it worth it to "half-!@#" haste? Like reforging into it so that I only have like 8% or something? I don't have much haste specific gear, so using the gear I have on NOW, what would you do if you wanted to go haste assuming getting new gear is not an immediate option? Regem and reforge? Or will I not be able to get enough to make it worth it? Are there breakpoints?

02/11/2013 01:01 PMPosted by Tailias
Your DPS matters, but not to a tremendous extent, especially in a 25-man where you make up a much much lower portion of the overall raid damage.


This is something I should really keep in mind for 25-mans. I hadn't considered it that much. But it's very true.
Edited by Dekkar on 2/11/2013 2:55 PM PST
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100 Human Paladin
14865
Reforged for some haste. We'll see how it makes a difference in the next raid. Went from near zero to 8.4%.

At this level my CS cooldown is 4.15 seconds and Avenger's Shield is 13.8 seconds.
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100 Human Paladin
14865
Well, promising results. My DPS went up a LOT.

I got in the mid 70's on Imperial Vizier, which is pretty decent compared to the prior week.
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90 Tauren Paladin
11340
The nice thing about haste for us is that, sacred shield aside, there aren't really any useful breakpoints to look out for. There's one for SS at about 5550 but beyond that the actual value of haste isn't all that important, any amount will suffice to speed up your rotation, increasing your dps and smoothing your damage intake.

Even if all you do is drop some dodge and parry for haste you should see an increase. Beyond that, changing gems is an excellent way to get a pretty hefty amount of haste.

I figure I'll mention it for the luls, on use and proc haste trinkets can do some pretty magnificent things when lined up with bloodlust, especially if you get in two SS refreshes during it.
Edited by Darpalta on 2/13/2013 10:16 PM PST
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100 Dwarf Paladin
19055
Ok, I am also in dire need of help here, I have tried everything to raise my DPS /dmg output read everything ,reforged, gemmed, ect.. I still cannot figure out why i'm always on the bottom of the list. what am I doing wrong?.. I press every spell button/cd as soon as they pop what's the secret??
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
16385
@ Diega, your over hit cap and under expertise cap. 7.5% hit and 15% exp is what you want. Your glyphs are less than optimal but they wouldnt affect your dps. Your haste is also very low, which will have a major impact on your dps output. The crit enchant on your cloak is also mostly useless, use either a hit or stam enchant, which will allow you to reforge hit off other pieces. Also the crit gem in your helm. Crit does basically nothing for prot pallies.
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100 Dwarf Paladin
19055
Ty Typan, I'll try to fix those things and see if I can't get some better damage happening
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