A plea for AV

90 Dwarf Warrior
11415
I apologize if this post is overly wordy, presumptuous, or even emotional. However it is something I have felt for sometime now and there is no getting past it.

I love battlegrounds, have since vanilla. I'm happy they are extremely accessible now, and I acknowledge the vast improvements that have been achieved and I admit that much of my perception is colored by nostalgia and fond memories of things that would not be fun now.

However as a dedicated player I am beginning to wonder what the point is to Alterac Valley. I do not mean lore wise, I suspend disbelief another few notches whenever I jump into something like a bg or an instance, and I am impressed Blizzard has gone as far as they have for plot immersion with phasing. What I mean is that Alterac Valley takes on average for me 15 to 20 minutes tops. I do not understand that at all. I do not understand having any of the NPCs there at all anymore. With the current application I feel as if the entire middle of the battleground could be removed, towers could be halved in number, and it would be actually more fun than it's current, somewhat neutered, iteration. However, I do not want that. I do want old AV.

The normal responses to this are as follows:
-Classic AV took days, you are a moron for suggesting this.
-Classic AV had PvE elements in it that true pvpers do not like, you are a moron for suggesting this.
-Classic AV took days and spending days in AV with the current crop of poet laureates would make baby Thrall cry until his eyes bled, and probably rate as torture under the more reasonable international treaties.

I do not exactly refute any of this, and indeed I am aware of all of it, however the only reason I can think of why any of that is a bad thing (well, except for the linguistic gymanstics of the more vulgar PvPer) is related entirely to things that have changed since Alterac Valley was created, primarily:
-The deserter debuff
-Honor as currency
-You could queue for specific matches (Ex: Alterac Valley 1 or Alterac Valley 2 etc)
-PvP gear that is entirely untied to reputations with BG factions

Let me say I do not wish for BG specific gear to be re-implemented. I think it would be cool, but I also think Christmas is cool and do not wish nor expect it for the rest of the year. I think though that there is no point to AV as it is, it is not fun in the way that other battlegrounds are, and I don't think it was designed to be fun this way regardless. I think if that were to change it would require a drastic revert and something that addresses both the deserter debuff (there is no reason a person in a bg for longer than 20 minutes should have that debuff, at that point if they're not still interested then anyone who still is doesn't want them there anyway) and the honor (or lack thereof?) gained in a long match.

Let me also address the one plain criticism that won't go away: AV lasting days. Yes, that could happen in a revert, but let me say that might not be a bad thing. The people who do not want to get into that have a wonderful tool at their disposal (assuming it ever works, I know that I've never had it work properly): The de-listing thumbs down option for a random. The people who do want to an epic game would get an epic game. With all of the BGs there are currently, with all of the BGs that will hopefully come into play in the future, at the present point in time, and with all due to respect to the excellent game designers, I would hope that something can be done to actually capture a true siege of the Valley.

If "true" pvpers argue that the old AV had too many PvE elements, then I would argue that is a good thing. Again, it sets it apart from other BGs, and yes variety in this sense is what I consider to be fun. Almost every Friday for the past three years I have done bgs with my closest friends, and this will not likely change if nothing is done, I am not so petty and infantile that I would cry "cancelling my account!", but as Chen Stormstout as my witness, I think this could be more fun more easily done than any other feature.

Well there you have a great wall of text, now we just need to put some Pandas on the top and it'll fit right into this expansion.

Best Regards,
Swagger
Edited by Swaggerpantz on 2/11/2013 4:10 PM PST
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90 Orc Hunter
14345
AV has always been a unique butterfly. It's a Horde defend, Alliance attack, battleground and it shows. Horde D up and watch the turtle.

That there is the exact problem however. The turtle. Even though it is designed into the map as an intended part of the battle (hence the days it took for a single AV to complete) it has been deemed "unviable" to actually defend by the honor grinders and its flowed from there.

I can sort of understand their position. The time it takes Horde to win an AV, you could of lost 4-5 of them.

This won't change until Blizzard sit down and really look hard at how AV plays out in the current PvP environment. Kind of sad. AV was fun, but the honor grind degraded it to a race.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
11415
Well, I see your perspective, about the Horde D(I know. I was a centurion not a Knight-Captain as my achievements state), but hell Alliance could D up pretty good at that murderous bridge, and god I even miss having to assault that as Horde. I was never particularly happy having to defend the Horde keep, but it was fun to do as a mage with a slowing blizzard. The best D the horde has (and this was pointed out a very long time ago on wow insider) was actually the pass at Iceblood GY (between the GY and the Tower). It was like the wow version of Thermopylae when we stopped the Alliance there. The Alliance, by comparison, had a terrible time of defending Stonehearth GY and Icewing Bunker.

But I agree, the honor grind has turned AV into... Well something kind of boring. I mean you race for 3/4ths of the map, then you might see some pvp/pve action, and then you're racing again, either to defend against an onslaught or to get back to your attack. Sometimes I don't even see actual combat more than twice in an AV. Hell, it would be more interesting if Blizz moved the Horde cave back to its forward position and gave the Alliance a matching one at this point. At least then you might be interested in setting up a defense rather than just not wanting to stop at all.
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90 Undead Mage
8345
I agree with OP. The reason I started playing WoW was because I watched one of my friends play AV. Sadly, Blizzard killed AV right when I started so I never got to play it.
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90 Night Elf Druid
5700
I can't understand how anyone would not want an AV that lasted hours. I queue to fight, not grind.
Edited by Losira on 2/11/2013 6:05 PM PST
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90 Orc Hunter
14345
A lot of people want to fight, and when you get enough people willing to AV is simply a blast.

However, the usual Horde cave talk is:

"All D Galv!"
"Takes too long, zerg!"
"Yeah, zerg!"
"I don't want to be here in an hour, turtles suck"

More often than not, too many people zerg to put up a decent defense.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
11415
Basically. Let me stress I understand the grind. Gear determines whether or not you can mount a basic defense or offense, and whether you go splat. However, I would still say that the current iteration of AV does not make sense, if only because there are so many other options if classic AV isn't what the grinder wants.

Why can't AV, and really any 40 man BG (I know... I know, they'll never make another thanks to IOC) feel more like a raid rather than... Well they're both just profoundly meh the way they currently are. I apologize to the developers who worked on IOC, but that is another one where I do not understand the BG as it relates to fun. I mean it's quick now, in fact despite all reason and sense, the two forty man BGs are generally quicker than a Twin Peaks or Arathi Basin (at least when you count actual PvP time. I suppose if we took the whole time some IoC's might be longer because of the travel time issue, but I wouldn't bet they're significantly longer even then.)

Forty man BGs should feel like old school 40 man raid world bosses. It should feel like Silithus during the AQ event. There should be NPC monsters roaming about that can drop a pvp blue weapon, there should be peon reinforcements, you should be able to conceivably summon the special air support and elemental lords. I mean how is any of this not fun? The people who think this isn't fun can always go back to herbing, which is probably what they'll do anyway when they desert if they can't get an easy win. I am not sure that is someone, or a group of someones, that should be catered to with large scale pvp battles.
Edited by Swaggerpantz on 2/11/2013 6:46 PM PST
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90 Tauren Death Knight
7240
a couple of times a week i'll run an AV group... and if i dare advertise on the forums, oh the tears

of course, those groups usually fill up fast with x-realm ppl over oQueue.

then it's old-school AV time. \o/
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90 Dwarf Warrior
11415
Yes, I've done some premades (though nothing with an addon, all just vent coordination), and they're laughably unbalanced. That's not old-school AV though. I mean even with a premade you had to account for all the other mobs, and the enemy could mount a remarkable, and protracted, defense against even a well coordinated foe.

I think that's the reason they implemented the laughably low reinforcement number, because people used to complain about the epic defenses. Well, I know I did, and I'm sorry.

I'm also very sorry if I ever whined about tabards. I formally apologize. Can I have tabard rep back please?
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90 Night Elf Druid
16180
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6712882789?page=1
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51 Worgen Priest
7185
Why not add time to the honor calculations? After the daily win, a 10 minute battleground would be worth at most 200 honor and 50 conquest points for the winner. A 20 minute 400 honor and 100 conquest, a 30 minute 600 honor and 150 conquest, and so on.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
11415
Thanks Bynir, I'll go bump your thread as well.

Bexley, I don't necessarily dislike your suggestion, however that seems remarkably complicated to do across all of the battlegrounds (which is what would have to be done) and address the honor grind, not really the feel and fun of AV.
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I am so sick and tired of these clowns whinging about AV when they clearly don't know how to play AV.

As is evidenced by your suggestion that towers should be halved in number.

Let me guess - you're one of those zerg Drek/Vann idiots?
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A lot of people want to fight, and when you get enough people willing to AV is simply a blast.

However, the usual Horde cave talk is:

"All D Galv!"
"Takes too long, zerg!"
"Yeah, zerg!"
"I don't want to be here in an hour, turtles suck"

More often than not, too many people zerg to put up a decent defense.


I love it when those Horde nubs all zerg Vann.

It all but guarantees a win for the Alliance. :-)
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90 Orc Hunter
14345
Pretty much. Usually I might of won one out of every 15-20 matches with that mentality. So far with the CTA this weekend, the only time we've won is when we put up a hard line of defense.

I eventually opted to blacklist AV not because I hate the map, but I hate how the players treat it.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
11415
I am so sick and tired of these clowns whinging about AV when they clearly don't know how to play AV.

As is evidenced by your suggestion that towers should be halved in number.

Let me guess - you're one of those zerg Drek/Vann idiots?


I appreciate that it was a long post, but I certainly don't want that and stated such. However, how long do you spend on your mount in AV relative to the entire time the game takes?

Are you saying you like how it is now?

I despise the zerg, hate it with a passion, it's boring, it's unfun. If they're going to not bring back classic AV though then the map should be shortened to even remotely approach a siege type affair. I don't mean shortened in time, I mean the damn thing is too long for how they have it now.

I cynically think that's how they'll go, because I don't think they'll go back. I think there's an almost a taboo to them going back and saying "we made a mistake here."
Edited by Swaggerpantz on 2/12/2013 6:37 PM PST
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