Warrior tanking feels...inadequate?

90 Draenei Warrior
5750
Just resubbed after about a two-and-a-half year leave from the game. Been loving play on my shaman, but coming back to my warrior, I discover a class that's been quite nearly gutted and redesigned from the ground up. A lot of it is great: The new Fury feels great, normalized rage seems to work far better than the old scaling rage, etc.

But warrior tanking feels like a complete exercise in futility. Nearly every AoE pull involves me attempting to mash Thunder Claps and Shockwaves and Cleaves as fast as my global cooldowns allow, with no use for Revenge with so many targets; I immediately lose control of just about every pull. And I just can't seem to put out the required threat to keep a boss centered.

Having a pally alt in the 70's, I can already tell they have it easy; a ranged "AoE" to pull with, an AoE DoT on short cooldown, two effective AoE attacks, and ridiculous single-target threat with all of those same abilities put together.

Do warriors get better at 90? Am I doing something wrong? What's missing that warrior tanking feels so...weak?
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94 Pandaren Warrior
16150
Warriors are in whats probably the best spot we've been in since we stopped being the only viable tank.

And I really don't know what to say about the aoe aggro, are you in defensive stance?

Give this a read, and go from there;

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7415514767
Edited by Ðemolition on 2/11/2013 10:39 PM PST
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90 Tauren Warrior
2570
02/11/2013 10:30 PMPosted by Sorametsu
Do warriors get better at 90?


No. We attain maximum awesome at 85, and then just maintain it because the dial doesn't go any further.

02/11/2013 10:30 PMPosted by Sorametsu
Am I doing something wrong?


Probably. BTW, Revenge hits more than one target, and gives you more rage for more Cleaves. Still, Warrior AoE is far superior now to what it was in Wrath, wherein I swore I would never tank HoS's gauntlet as a warrior EVER again, (and almost swore off warrior tanking for the rest of that expansion) yet completed it successfully and easily last week on an at-level alt without letting a single add down the stairs. Not a solid metric, but there aren't many examples of streaming adds needing immediate attention.

We've never had trouble with single target threat, like, ever. If you're losing aggro, you either never had aggro, or a noob's pet taunted off you.
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90 Draenei Warrior
11550
Your waggle should be enough to keep aggro indefinitely
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90 Draenei Death Knight
0
It'll get better after a few levels (say level 87). What you're going through, is the case of grouping up with other toons who had transitioned to this expansion after gearing up with full suit of gears from Cataclysm's LFR tier. If you didn't do the Cataclysm LFR and jump right into MoP, you'll find your level 85 heavily outclassed by the others.

After a few levels and quests though, your MoP greens and blues will outstrip the Cataclysm LFR gear, and you'll have a much easier time holding aggro.

None of your gear are enchanted, which adds to the misery you're experiencing. Normally when I run a tank or healer toon, I prefer to go in with all the enchants/gems I can afford.
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57 Human Mage
10305
Id say the only problem is in the gaps between abilities. For 2-3 mobs, cleave and revenge are just fine to control them with SW and TC, but when its holding 5+, in comparison to other tanks, id say we're in the bottom of the barrel.

Monks in general though, are just ridiculous because of keg smash + crit. 35%+ crit from agility and buffs alone vs my warriors 5% + buffs.
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90 Dwarf Warrior
14765
Did you remember to go into defensive stance?
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94 Pandaren Warrior
16150
02/12/2013 01:00 PMPosted by Sheetywok
Id say the only problem is in the gaps between abilities. For 2-3 mobs, cleave and revenge are just fine to control them with SW and TC, but when its holding 5+, in comparison to other tanks, id say we're in the bottom of the barrel.


er...what?

Deep wounds and bloodbath say hi
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98 Tauren Warrior
7820
Pro-tips:

Revenge hits 3 mobs now and is free. It generates Rage, and deep in the fight you might find yourself spamming it because you block/parry/dodge so often.

Shield Slam is free, crits rather nicely, and can proc a free Cleave/Heroic Strike.

Cleave only hits 2 mobs now, and costs a buttload unless you get the free proc off Shield Slam.

You should only use Cleave/HS when you have a free proc. Otherwise its a waste of rage (except when you literally can't spend rage any other way).

Pull strategy remains the same as it ever was, with some kinks (brackets denote optional attacks):

Shout for rage
[Heroic Throw]
Charge

Thunder Clap
[Revenge/Cleave]
Shockwave
Shield Slam

Thunder Clap
Revenge
[Cleave]
Shield Slam

Thunder Clap
Revenge
[Cleave]
Shield Slam
Shockwave

Thunder Clap
Revenge
[Cleave]
Shield Slam

etc.

Sprinkle in Devestates to proc special Shield Slams.

Use Shield Block or Shield Barrier as soon as you have 60 rage. If you're facing physical melee enemies, use SBlock. If you're facing magical melee or casters or AOE, use SBarrier. Use either one as often as you can...Have you got 60 rage? Cast Shield *! Have you got 60 more rage? Cast Shield *!

If you have the rage, use SBlock AND SBarrier at the same time for added protection.

Keep casting your Shout and Berserker Rage essentially on cooldown.

Use your stuns, fears, interupts, and reflects as often as you can. This includes Shockwave, Tauren War Stomp, glyphed Intimidating Shout (to pin mobs instead of scatter them), Mass Spell Reflect, Spell Reflect, Disrupting Shout, and Charge stun.

Attempt to use Charge during fights to increase Rage gen. This might mean Heroic Leaping out of the "huddle" and charging back, or Intervening a party member and charging back.

Heroic Leap also deals AOE damage which can be very nice if you start a pull with full rage (and thus don't need the Charge rage). Heroic Leap + Shockwave + Thunder Clap usually cements your AOE aggro.

I agree with the above poster who said Warriors are at the best place for tanking that we've ever been (at least since the end of BC, when I began tanking).
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90 Undead Warrior
5295
02/11/2013 10:30 PMPosted by Sorametsu
Nearly every AoE pull involves me attempting to mash Thunder Claps and Shockwaves and Cleaves as fast as my global cooldowns allow, with no use for Revenge with so many targets; I immediately lose control of just about every pull.


Cleave is a rage dump. Revenge is free, hits 3 targets, and generates rage. With 5 + mobbs on you and a decent amount of parry/dodge, you will almost be able to ride your revenge key soley.

For any pull with 4 or more mobbs I generally mark one target so the group focuses on them, leap in, thunderclap, backpeddle then shockwave. By this time I have aggro on all, dps is burning the skull and I focus on the skull. By the time skull goes down I have enough aggro to hold the rest of them no problem.
Edited by Dropknee on 2/12/2013 4:27 PM PST
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90 Gnome Priest
6575
another major change you are probably not use to-
Pool your rage!

in the old style of warrior tanking we used Cleave/HS to keep our rage bar from maxing out.
Full rage=bad tank

This has changed in MOP
1) pool rage
2) Use Shield block and defensive cool downs when needed
also
HS and Cleave hit like a little girl compared to SHslam/revenge. Its just not worth spamming Cleave/HS unless they are free.

don't forget about heroic leap for AoE pulls, the glyph adds 100% damage O.o
Edited by Pumpkinz on 2/14/2013 5:43 AM PST
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100 Human Warrior
17730
Pull strategy remains the same as it ever was, with some kinks (brackets denote optional attacks):

Shout for rage
[Heroic Throw]
Charge


If its a pack of mobs that needs AoE, I'd suggest:

Shout
Reck
Heroic Leap
Mocking banner
thunderclap

Then go into your rotation.

Also, if you are having trouble holding threat look at your hit/expertise. Last time you played we were ignoring hit/exp. Now they are near top priority to get to the cap.

This might mean Heroic Leaping out of the "huddle" and charging back,


Why would you waste a heroic leap this way? It will a ton of damage AND generate the threat he is looking for. Heroic leaping OUT of the pack wastes 2 GCD's (1 to get out, 1 to get in). Is a dps loss, is a rage loss and when you consider 1 gcd to leap out and 1 charge in just to generate rage you could just as easily have done any ability other than Heroic leap and then hit one of the many abilities we have that actually generates rage.
Edited by Khahan on 2/14/2013 8:18 AM PST
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98 Tauren Warrior
7820

This might mean Heroic Leaping out of the "huddle" and charging back,


Why would you waste a heroic leap this way? It will a ton of damage AND generate the threat he is looking for. Heroic leaping OUT of the pack wastes 2 GCD's (1 to get out, 1 to get in). Is a dps loss, is a rage loss and when you consider 1 gcd to leap out and 1 charge in just to generate rage you could just as easily have done any ability other than Heroic leap and then hit one of the many abilities we have that actually generates rage.

It's situational. I find it useful if I want to reposition or escape some ground effect, AOE, or cone attack. In dungeons I usually HL to the next pack to chain pull.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
14965
02/14/2013 08:13 AMPosted by Khahan
Heroic leaping OUT of the pack wastes 2 GCD's (1 to get out, 1 to get in)


HL and Charge don't use the GCD. It'd only waste the time it takes you to push the buttons.

Aside from that, yeah, HLing somewhere where there aren't mobs is a bit of a waste.
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100 Human Warrior
17730
HL and Charge don't use the GCD. It'd only waste the time it takes you to push the buttons.


They may not use the gcd, but the time you are heading out to land for heroic leap, turning and charging back in, you cannot use any other gcd's, except maybe Heroic throw. But there are just better options and better results. Using heroic throw is making lemonade out of lemons.

Staying in...well lemons don't enter the equation.

It's situational. I find it useful if I want to reposition or escape some ground effect, AOE, or cone attack. In dungeons I usually HL to the next pack to chain pull.


And those are OK uses for heroic leap. But those are not the uses you initially described.
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90 Human Warrior
6580
But warrior tanking feels like a complete exercise in futility. Nearly every AoE pull involves me attempting to mash Thunder Claps and Shockwaves and Cleaves as fast as my global cooldowns allow, with no use for Revenge with so many targets; I immediately lose control of just about every pull. And I just can't seem to put out the required threat to keep a boss centered.


As someone else mentioned, the problem may be your Cata gear versus their MoP Heroic or even raid or VP gear. It's very hard to keep aggro when DPS are outgunning you that much, especially if they are trigger happy and in a big rush (which most pugs are) and don't give you a few seconds to gain and solidify aggro. Try running some instances with guildies or friends who'll let you play a little slower, give you time to gain aggro... it might go a little better.

Something else to keep in mind are the new mechanics. With active mitigation, Hit and Expertise now matter -- a lot. You need to reforge your Hit and Expertise to a level where you're hitting the bosses as much as possible, preferably 100% of the time. For 5-mans this is 6%. At 85 and while first gearing up at 90 you may not be able to hit 6% cap, but you still need to consider these stats -- and work on them, even at the expense of passive mitigation stats like Dodge and Parry. As an added benefit, hitting more will also help you keep threat.

Also take Heroic Strike out of your rotation (except, perhaps, for questing). Imnsho you can't spare the rage if it's unprocced and you can't spare the GCD even if it is. You can keep Cleave but I advise that you don't use it unless it procs... and even then... both use a GCD that could be spent on a rage- and threat-generating attack like Devastate or a more effective AoE, like Thunder Clap or Shockwave. But if Cleave procs and if Cleave is all you have, sure, use it.
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90 Tauren Warrior
2570
02/16/2013 03:23 AMPosted by Aamish
can't spare the GCD even if it is. You can keep Cleave but I advise that you don't use it unless it procs... and even then... both use a GCD


No they don't. The only thing that goes on CD when you HS/Cleave is HS/Cleave. The only way they compete with other abilities is if you don't have them keybound to a convenient spot. To which I would suggest that even if you are a clicker, pick a key near your movement keys, 3, r,f, whatever, just something that you can hit with a quick tap, and bind HS to it. You aren't spamming it anymore, so it doesn't need to be on the mousewheel, but that's also a good place for it.
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100 Tauren Warrior
11585
You can also charge in and heroic leap mid charge to get some more snap aggro in addition to the rage from charge. Takes some practice to get used to but well worth the effort.
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94 Pandaren Warrior
16150
You seem to have misspelled "3+ mobs you top the dps meter"
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