Remove healing tide.

90 Pandaren Shaman
12265
02/20/2013 10:12 PMPosted by Aurinaux
I did say I would back a numbers increase, though.


A numbers increase on a spell I don't get to use majority of the time isn't going to help anything, and really, numbers aren't the issue - range is. On the rare occasions where you can hit all your targets, it accomplishes the goal. The healing is fine.
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90 Troll Shaman
13250
02/20/2013 04:02 PMPosted by Kaels
But this is just absolutely, demonstrably false.


You are kind of looking at this in a vaccum with this analysis. I know personally, even in 25 man, that i am not casting CH unless the whole raid is being damaged as you are making the assumption that even in the 25 man venue that say on your 30% model that all of those people are within 12.5 yards of each other. As much as it looks good on paper in practice it is nowhere near that neat. You need to adjust your 100% chance on ch due to needing 100 sq yard in ten man to needing 250 in 25 man. (using a 10yard spread but you can use whatever spread number you'd like as it will mostly come out the same)

02/20/2013 04:14 PMPosted by Thaimaishu
I mean, I could go into 25s right now on my Shaman (if he were 90) and suddenly my CH spreading problems from 10s would "vanish". So what skill did I magically start to exhibit? I can't agree that it's a player problem


I apologize if you are taking my statement in the wrong way but i have never said anything about skill in either venue. I have raided in both 10 and 25 so i am not looking down or talking up either one. And i can tell you 100% that the issue does not disappear in 25 man. When the second bounce goes out to the hunter(they love to be way out there) it dies a pianful death out there with one jump. Even if your initial taget was towards the middle of the raid.
Edited by Harpoa on 2/21/2013 4:29 AM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
02/21/2013 12:01 AMPosted by Kaels
But I think the genuinely interesting cases are the 30-60% ones, where CH is almost always useful in 25 but almost never useful in 10.


Your proposition for covering this middle ground is, I presume, to increase the range of CH to (25) yards?

02/21/2013 02:54 AMPosted by Pebble
A numbers increase on a spell I don't get to use majority of the time isn't going to help anything, and really, numbers aren't the issue - range is. On the rare occasions where you can hit all your targets, it accomplishes the goal. The healing is fine.


From evidently my experience alone, when I need to use CH, I almost always get to use CH. Although, I don't always need to use CH, so I typically don't use CH. This is perhaps one of the biggest issues I've found with the cause: the scenarios just seem like some fantasy exercise. My experience becomes even more shocking when I say 25 man has to deal with the same stuff. But I'll leave it on that note. ^_^
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10645
02/21/2013 07:00 AMPosted by Aurinaux
Your proposition for covering this middle ground is, I presume, to increase the range of CH to (25) yards?

That or allow back-chaining. I think back-chaining might be more interesting. And since they've balanced CH HPS and HPM as if it were a single-target heal anyway, I think the old argument against it no longer holds.

02/21/2013 04:07 AMPosted by Harpoa
You are kind of looking at this in a vaccum with this analysis. I know personally, even in 25 man, that i am not casting CH unless the whole raid is being damaged as you are making the assumption that even in the 25 man venue that say on your 30% model that all of those people are within 12.5 yards of each other. As much as it looks good on paper in practice it is nowhere near that neat. You need to adjust your 100% chance on ch due to needing 100 sq yard in ten man to needing 250 in 25 man. (using a 10yard spread but you can use whatever spread number you'd like as it will mostly come out the same)

I wasn't talking about a spread situation - I was talking about a split-stack situation, where (one would think) CH should be a viable multitarget healing choice most of the time.

/range spreads are a different matter - I discussed them briefly at the end, but they're much harder to math, so all I can really say is that 25s do have some advantage but it's hard to use CH in a spread no matter what.

And there's a difference between "the whole raid is being damaged" and "the whole raid is damaged right now". The whole raid can be taking damage, but since you have other healers, absorbs, DRs, etc., that damage isn't actually equally distributed. Like I said, most of my healing decisions in 10m involve roughly half the raid being damaged at the same time (even when the mechanic causing the damage is raidwide AoE.)
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
02/21/2013 10:18 AMPosted by Kaels
That or allow back-chaining.


That sounds like a fun idea. If you didn't increase the numbers at all then you could cast a CH on two tanks stacked and have it bounce between them. This would give CH a wider variety of uses while being a pigeonholed Beacon-ish spell. Seems like many logistics would need to be worked out though. We might even sacrifice serious HPM because of it.

Fun thoughts. I wonder if it would have any success on quieting the concerns of the community. The additional range for CH has been a somewhat ongoing desire since 3.0 released. As many are probably aware, it's been increased by 2.5 yards since then so far.
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90 Troll Shaman
13250
02/21/2013 10:18 AMPosted by Kaels
I wasn't talking about a spread situation - I was talking about a split-stack situation, where (one would think) CH should be a viable multitarget healing choice most of the time.


I see them as one and the same. But i understand your point of view.
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90 Pandaren Monk
13215


I apologize if you are taking my statement in the wrong way but i have never said anything about skill in either venue. I have raided in both 10 and 25 so i am not looking down or talking up either one. And i can tell you 100% that the issue does not disappear in 25 man. When the second bounce goes out to the hunter(they love to be way out there) it dies a pianful death out there with one jump. Even if your initial taget was towards the middle of the raid.


No offense taken, and I wasn't really trying to say that you in particular were being malevolent, but that it is often seen that way when this is brought up.

And I did say that they disappear comparatively, not completely. Which is fine. If Shaman had the exact same set of "problems" in 25 man that they did in 10s regarding CH and nothing else, I really doubt this would be as much of a concern. On the flip side, if 25 mans raiders experienced the same current issues with the spell as 10 mans, I think the issue would have been corrected by now. I was almost exclusively 25 manning until Tier 12, so when this issue was "discovered" it was at about the worst possible time. But hey, it was the gateway drug to get me posting here (this may not be a good thing depending on who you ask lol)


That or allow back-chaining. I think back-chaining might be more interesting. And since they've balanced CH HPS and HPM as if it were a single-target heal anyway, I think the old argument against it no longer holds.


Back-chaining would be interesting, even though I am not sure what the intended role of it would be. It should end up making the spell more useful than now though, which would likely be a bonus.

The main problem I see with that however...I have no idea if Blizzard has the tech to implement the spell in that way. If they do not, then the earliest we could see changes to the spell in that regard is next expansion. By the time that happens, we could run into a situation similar to Tier 45 talents: we get the changes we want an expansion too late to matter and they are functionally outdated (aka useless) the second they arrive. Plus Blizzard is apparently scratching their heads because they remember us asking for it at one point. Makes me hesitant to want to go that way...since the tech for the range boost is here already, and I continue to to see no argument against it baselined.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
02/21/2013 05:40 PMPosted by Thaimaishu
The main problem I see with that however...I have no idea if Blizzard has the tech to implement the spell in that way. If they do not, then the earliest we could see changes to the spell in that regard is next expansion. By the time that happens, we could run into a situation similar to Tier 45 talents: we get the changes we want an expansion too late to matter and they are functionally outdated (aka useless) the second they arrive. Plus Blizzard is apparently scratching their heads because they remember us asking for it at one point. Makes me hesitant to want to go that way...since the tech for the range boost is here already, and I continue to to see no argument against it baselined.


Pretty much the sad truth. Any interesting mechanism would be just more coding and whatnot compared to just changing an already available variable like range boosts. Hopefully with the next expansion (sadface) they can remodel some of the skewed talent trees to include interesting benefits to CH that we can select from, or just some assortment.

Anyways, here's a response from Ask the Dev's back in Cataclysm regarding a CH specific question:

Chain Heal is inherently a situational spell – that situation tends to arise more often the more players are present, but we don’t have any plans to redesign the spell to make it the go-to heal when there are fewer players present, or they are all spread far apart. We’d rather augment other tools, or add new ones, if it appears that Shaman healing is inadequate for particular situations.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
I think that what people who do not play Shaman in heroic 25 man raids are not getting is that even in 25 man raids, and even in situations where people are stacked close enough together to meet the ideal conditions for CH, the spell still sucks. In no way can it be used in the way PoH or Rejuv spam can be used. It all has to do with mana expenditure. Even at over 15,000 raid buffed Spirit (which I am just under currently but have been over 15,000 before), you can not get away with spamming Chain Heal as a pure filler (between Riptide/HST/HR on CD). Even using it 50% of your available filler cast time will run you completely OOM in around 3 minutes. On some long fights, even when a RT CH would hit 4 targets, you can not justify the mana cost, because the maintenance of things that we need to keep up on CD (HST - even with the recall glyph, HR and RT) is so expensive that burning mana on CH impedes on your ability to maintain that rotation and have some mana to spare for emergency single target heals.

For example, you would think a fight like Shek'zeer heroic would be a great fight for Chain Heal on 25H. The ranged DPS are loosely spread, but close enough together on 25 man that you can easily hit 4 targets, and everyone is stacked and taking damage during the retreat phases. However, I barely touch Chain Heal on that fight because the fight is 12+ minutes long, heavily healing intensive throughout, and mana longevity becomes a real issue.

I still don't think range considerations are even worth discussing until they make the spell itself viable.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
Good points. Are there PoH HPM figures available for similar stats?

This is the kind of thing that should mobilize change and could likely find a reasonable place for discussion in the presiding PTR thread before healing changes are finalized.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17255
@Tiberria. I totally agree with you that CH is underpowered, but if you think it's bad in 25H, try 10H. At least when you do use it in a 25 person group, you have a far more opportunities to hit all targets.
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90 Troll Shaman
13250
I have tried it in 10h it heals for the same amount. When discussing classes it is best not to continually bring up the different venues as opposed to focusing on the spell itself.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17255
Well *I* certainly didn't say it healed for a different amount.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10645
02/21/2013 08:50 PMPosted by Aurinaux
Good points. Are there PoH HPM figures available for similar stats?

PoH HPM is insanely better than CH, but on the other hand, PoH isn't really comparable to CH; priests don't have a Healing Rain equivalent.

For a basic reference, in my gear (which is optimized for Shadow, so my Mastery is very low) PoH is about 13.2 HPM. I think 15 or so would be a good estimate for someone who's actually geared for Holy.

CH costs the same as PoH and heals for probably a little over half as much. It's less sustainable than PoH mostly because priests have a somewhat lower rate of mana expenditure on "rotational" abilities (CoH, PoM, Cascade).
Edited by Kaels on 2/21/2013 9:07 PM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
I'm not sure whom I'm directing this to, if anyone, but a range increase probably won't make a green light at Blizzard as easily as a numerical case, should CH be underperforming.

02/21/2013 09:01 PMPosted by Kaels
It's less sustainable than PoH mostly because priests have a somewhat lower rate of mana expenditure on "rotational" abilities (CoH, PoM, Cascade).


I don't understand. PoH is more efficient than CH because you guys have efficient spells? Rephrase if you can.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10645
02/21/2013 09:28 PMPosted by Aurinaux
I don't understand. PoH is more efficient than CH because you guys have efficient spells? Rephrase if you can.

Basically, shamans have to spend the following:
25,860 mana every 12 seconds on Healing Rain
9,600 mana every 6 seconds on Riptide
4,920 mana every 15 seconds on Unleash Elements
14,100 mana every 30 seconds on Healing Stream Totem
for a total of 273,180 mana/minute.

Priests have to spend the following:
27,000 mana every ~30 seconds on Cascade
9,600 mana every 6 seconds on CoH (with t14 4p)
10,500 mana every 10 seconds on PoM
for a total of 213,000 mana/minute.

That leaves priests with an extra ~60,000 mana per minute to spend on filler spells - basically, the difference is about 4 casts of PoH or CH. It may be a bit more or less because we don't cast PoM quite on CD and shamans may not cast HR quite on CD. And the glyph of HST has an impact. But overall, priests just have a bit more mana to spend on filler.

That doesn't mean priests have an HPM advantage overall. Keep in mind that CoH/PoM/Cascade do quite a bit less healing than HR/RT/HST; priest healing is balanced so that a lot more of it comes from filler.
Edited by Kaels on 2/21/2013 9:45 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
13215
I'm not sure whom I'm directing this to, if anyone, but a range increase probably won't make a green light at Blizzard as easily as a numerical case, should CH be underperforming.


A numerical increase isn't going to solve the 10 man issues, though. If it's not even worth casting as filler after HRain for 25s, that's a separate issue. If it goes back to being worth casting as filler after HRain is down in 25s because of a number boost, what exactly changed meaningfully regarding 10s? I'm not gonna say the 25s' situation doesn't matter, but quite frankly, they should take a number and get in line. If people say they don't care about a range increase because it still won't be worth casting in 25s, I just might say the same regarding a HPS increase for 10s. But I have no problem with working on both at once. I'd prefer it.

If Blizzard actually works on the spell, I'd want it done right since who knows when they will touch it again. Numbers are so easy to see (and tune) I'm not even really worried about the "what if" regarding that anyway. They know Shaman HPS is low, and I'm sure they know how little use CH gets. Not exactly a brain twister.

If they are not interested in working on CH for 10s via a spread increase, then a new spell is fine too. Problem is, that won't happen until next expansion at the earliest, and said spell likely will go completely unused in 25s unless it's better than CH as filler there too, in which case why keep CH at all? CH is right there, Sunwell fears and archaic design stubbornness about it be damned. It's not the same spell or the same environment anymore.

Again, no reasoning brought forth from Blizzard on keeping it as-is means they probably don't have a good one as far as I am concerned.
Edited by Thaimaishu on 2/21/2013 10:12 PM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
I don't see an immediate shortcoming from it, but a lot of it needs to be normalized.

Looking within, if CH is designed to be a simple burst AoE ability, then the mana cost can stay as long as there are results, but it doesn't seem to go even beyond ordinary triage. There's so many factors that can be argued with today's seemingly infinite, vast toolkits though. Shamans have always been the kings of triage via TW making CH a perfect segue back into much of the action.

Again, it's hard to take it in any direction without an opinion from Blizzard on the role of CH or even some AoE spells in general.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
02/21/2013 10:05 PMPosted by Thaimaishu
A numerical increase isn't going to solve the 10 man issues, though.


It's not intended to be a "Tiberria is right, listen to him" post. I wish Blizzard would respond more on your concern.
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90 Pandaren Monk
13215
02/21/2013 10:12 PMPosted by Aurinaux
A numerical increase isn't going to solve the 10 man issues, though.


It's not intended to be a "Tiberria is right, listen to him" post. I wish Blizzard would respond more on your concern.


I would like both addressed. :(
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