Remove healing tide.

90 Draenei Shaman
17105

That leaves priests with an extra ~60,000 mana per minute to spend on filler spells - basically, the difference is about 4 casts of PoH or CH. It may be a bit more or less because we don't cast PoM quite on CD and shamans may not cast HR quite on CD. And the glyph of HST has an impact. But overall, priests just have a bit more mana to spend on filler.

That doesn't mean priests have an HPM advantage overall. Keep in mind that CoH/PoM/Cascade do quite a bit less healing than HR/RT/HST; priest healing is balanced so that a lot more of it comes from filler.


Don't forget 11,600 mana on Earth Shield every 30 seconds or so or the fact that Priest direct single target heals are 10-15% less expensive than Shaman direct heals.

Beyond that, I think it is a problem to have so much of your output and mana cost tied to things that you can just blindly use on CD and so little output as well as so little mana left to use filler spells that involve actual intelligent decision making. That isn't effective class design.
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90 Troll Shaman
13250
02/22/2013 03:35 AMPosted by Tiberria
I think it is a problem to have so much of your output and mana cost tied to things that you can just blindly use on CD and so little output as well as so little mana left to use filler spells that involve actual intelligent decision making


Seems to me that our filler spells are supposed to be single target heals though, and not ch in the grand scheme of things. Back in 4.0 the grand idea of triage healing was supposed to be loosely based off of shaman healing, at least that is what GC said back then. And they did a fantastic job of creating a toolkit around that. They just seemed to forget to make all the other healing classes be based around said design.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
02/22/2013 04:28 AMPosted by Harpoa
Seems to me that our filler spells are supposed to be single target heals though, and not ch in the grand scheme of things.


The more I look at the numbers of our toolkit, the more inevitable I find this to be. And I'm not opposed to it--we all picked Shaman knowing this playstyle was an integral part of it, though perhaps not all of it.

I don't think we're falling dramatically far behind other classes toolkits for straight AoE healing when taken as a whole. I think that is actually one of few things that earns our keep in a raid alongside TW. I think what may cause this reaction is CH has historically been extremely mana efficient, and it seems like it should be given the "planning" necessary to overcome restrictions in a number of scenarios--it's just rewarding good players in that case--but in the former case under question there's no planning needed, you just cast it.

I guess what that leaves Blizzard's response with is that CH is designed to be burst AoE; just another slider scale in HPS and Blizzard is asking us if we want to take that bet by spending a little extra mana to enforce that extra HPS in strict AoE. I can easily see them falling back on this, but that still pushes Shaman into a somewhat newer identity.

I would still back a minor number change easily on the basis of Thaimaishu's previous comments:

02/18/2013 04:16 PMPosted by Thaimaishu
Shaman should be rewarded for using CH properly on 3-4 targets imo, not be discouraged from doing so, even without RT on the target. The boost should be a bonus rather than a requirement.


Otherwise it falls into an acceptable niche in our "new" toolkit. All other concerns for the ability aside, such as 10 man range issues etc.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12745
02/22/2013 04:28 AMPosted by Harpoa
Seems to me that our filler spells are supposed to be single target heals though, and not ch in the grand scheme of things.

Then:
1) What is CH supposed to be for? If it's not a filler for multitarget damage (I guess that's supposed to be Healing Wave?), and it's not an on-demand burst ability (that would be GHW), then what the Hell is it?

2) Why are the ST heals so inefficient and bad compared to...pretty much everything else except maybe CH? Why does it have to feel bad to spend mana on your filler?

3) If the game is supposed to be fun, why are ST heals (excluding Soothing Mist) so bland and boring?

4) If the ST spells are going to be balanced to be filler and/or burst on top of Healing Rain, and CH is balanced to be...I guess occasionally used for moderate healing on a stacked raid on top of HR..., then what are shamans supposed to do when Healing Rain doesn't work well?

I think it's that "Healing Rain doesn't work well" scenario that bothers me the most. As a priest, I sometimes encounter scenarios where my bread-and-butter AoE, PoH, doesn't work well. But then I have a very solid alternative in Renew.

I'm not sure what the shaman alternative is supposed to be. It's not CH or the ST heals or HST, because (as we've already established), those are balanced to be used on top of HR; altogether they probably make up less than half of shaman AoE output. If it's supposed to be glyphed Riptide, then glyphed Riptide needs a buff.

As a priest, I lose some healing when PoH doesn't work well, but my output and HPM don't drop by more than half.
Edited by Kaels on 2/22/2013 11:45 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
02/22/2013 11:09 AMPosted by Aurinaux
The more I look at the numbers of our toolkit, the more inevitable I find this to be. And I'm not opposed to it--we all picked Shaman knowing this playstyle was an integral part of it, though perhaps not all of it.


Well, when I picked my shaman, a playstyle where "our filler spells are supposed to be single target heals" did not even exist. Having said that, having HW or GHW be "filler" doesn't bother me.

I am mildly bothered by the weakness of CH, although I am sympathetic to the developers, who are in the position of worrying about making it so powerful, it makes more sense to use CH in every or most situations. But if what you say is true, that "CH is designed to be burst AoE" - I'm not sure it accomplishes what it is intended to do. Maybe a more accurate formulation is this: "CH and HR, when used in conjunction, are designed to be Shaman's burst AoE"

Edit: @Kaels. I may be remembering this improperly, but I believe in Cataclysm, HW was far more mana neutral than it is now, was something like 6% of base mana. It is now 10% of base mana. I find it inexplicable why it wouldn't be super cheap.
Edited by Taymage on 2/22/2013 11:46 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12745
Edit: @Kaels. I may be remembering this improperly, but I believe in Cataclysm, HW was far more mana neutral than it is now, was something like 6% of base mana. It is now 10% of base mana. I find it inexplicable why it wouldn't be super cheap.

I'm not sure. But as long as it's balanced to be the sustainable filler on top of HR, it's never going to be a great spell.

I think if they're going to go with the current model (HR is the bread-and-butter AoE on top of which shamans triage with single-target spells) then there needs to be a fairly significant rework of CH and glyphed Riptide to (1) give them a purpose and (2) make them not suck for that purpose.

I think an interesting solution would be to redesign CH with a Cascade-like mechanic: longer jump range, prefers more distant targets (although unlike Cascade it should only jump to injured targets), increases in strength with distance. Then you probably don't want to use it in a stack (so you don't have to worry about bigger heals from it on top of full-power HR), but it works well for a spread.
Edited by Kaels on 2/22/2013 12:07 PM PST
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90 Troll Shaman
13250
02/22/2013 11:29 AMPosted by Kaels
1) What is CH supposed to be for?


For very mild damage over the raid. Right now on a full health pool target my HW hits for 55k and crits for 110k and GHW 110-220k. So a close to nuetral spell hits for a 1/8 to 1/4 of a typical health pool.

It also it a bit more powerful during ascendance, which makes it better when the whole raid is taking significant damage.

02/22/2013 11:29 AMPosted by Kaels
Why are the ST heals so inefficient and bad compared to...pretty much everything else except maybe CH? Why does it have to feel bad to spend mana on your filler?


I think they are efficient, even ghw spam can be sustained in short bursts and as spirit level goes up HS becomes more attractive as well. I used to not even use HS, ever, now i find myself using it much more often.

02/22/2013 11:29 AMPosted by Kaels
3) If the game is supposed to be fun, why are ST heals (excluding Soothing Mist) so bland and boring?


That is personal perspective.
Edited by Harpoa on 2/22/2013 12:22 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12745
02/22/2013 12:20 PMPosted by Harpoa
For very mild damage over the raid.

But that's what HW is for.

02/22/2013 12:20 PMPosted by Harpoa
I think they are efficient, even ghw spam can be sustained in short bursts and as spirit level goes up HS becomes more attractive as well. I used to not even use HS, ever, now i find myself using it much more often.

Weren't you the one just telling us that CH couldn't be sustained? GHW is massively more expensive than CH.

And compare any of the four to HR, HST, Riptide, PoH, Rejuv, RM, Holy Shock, Beacon HL. It's sad. It's frankly pathetic. Single-target HPM is bad. Not just for shamans - it's just that shamans are the only ones expected to actually raidheal with single-target spells.

02/22/2013 12:20 PMPosted by Harpoa
That is personal perspective.

No, actually, it's not. Single-target non-flash heals:
- Work exactly the same for all non-monk healers with only small numerical variations
- Require zero positional awareness for non-monk healers
- Are almost completely predictable in their primary effects
- Have no secondary effects, except for paladins
- And even prevent you doing anything else interesting while casting them, because they require you to stand still and prevent use of interrupts.
Edited by Kaels on 2/22/2013 1:03 PM PST
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90 Troll Shaman
13250
02/22/2013 01:01 PMPosted by Kaels
Weren't you the one just telling us that CH couldn't be sustained? GHW is massively more expensive than CH.


Nope, wasn't me. That was Tib.

02/22/2013 11:29 AMPosted by Kaels
so bland and boring?


02/22/2013 12:20 PMPosted by Harpoa
That is personal perspective.


What you find boring others may not.
Edited by Harpoa on 2/22/2013 1:09 PM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
02/22/2013 01:08 PMPosted by Harpoa
Weren't you the one just telling us that CH couldn't be sustained? GHW is massively more expensive than CH.


Nope, wasn't me. That was Tib.


Chain Heal as a filler can not be sustained. Greater Healing Wave spam is definitely not sustainable. Even spamming it for 10 seconds with Ascendance up puts you in the hole for a LOT of mana. Healing Surge is nearly the same HPM as GHW (if used with the 30% Tidal Waves crit buff).

Healing Wave is borderline sustainable if used between HST/HR/ULE/RT cooldowns, but even that cuts it close on regen on fights with little movement and you can chain cast 95% of the time.

Healing Wave was significantly more mana neutral in Cata. However, it also healed for only about half of what it does now relative to the health pool scaling. I remember that when 5.0 went live, HW went from healing for like 15k to close to 30k.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
18170
02/22/2013 03:58 PMPosted by Tiberria
I remember that when 5.0 went live, HW went from healing for like 15k to close to 30k.


Well, our health pools have *more* than doubled. If the amount of HW's heal only doubled, it is relatively weaker than it was in Cata. All the more reason it makes zero sense that the developers increased the percentage of base mana HW costs.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
Ooh, look at that, my dumb priest decided to show up.
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90 Troll Shaman
13250
02/22/2013 03:58 PMPosted by Tiberria
Chain Heal as a filler can not be sustained.


Didn't ever say either could be sustained, hence me using the term "short bursts". HW is pretty much spammable though. Granted if you never ever crit, don't use MTT it will run you dry but otherwise it is as close to mana nuetral as we have.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
02/22/2013 04:27 PMPosted by Tayblin
I remember that when 5.0 went live, HW went from healing for like 15k to close to 30k.


Well, our health pools have *more* than doubled. If the amount of HW's heal only doubled, it is relatively weaker than it was in Cata. All the more reason it makes zero sense that the developers increased the percentage of base mana HW costs.


Right, but what I am saying is when 5.0 went live, what HW was healing for at level 85 nearly doubled over what it was healing for pre-patch. I am also saying that at level 90, it is healing for more of a percentage of a typical health pool than it did at 85 (pre-5.0). They made the spell relatively stronger but also relatively more expensive.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
Oh, *5.0*

Derp.
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90 Troll Shaman
12525
Ascendance is enough of a big cd, remove healing tide.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
02/23/2013 01:17 AMPosted by Kreyyn
Ascendance is enough of a big cd, remove healing tide.


No, it is not. They are two entirely different things. HTT is a Tranq equivalent. Ascendance is a throughput cooldown that is somewhat similar to Tree of Life or Guardian of Ancient Kings. They both have important roles in our arsenal, and we would need significant buffs if HTT were to be removed.
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90 Troll Shaman
12525
Ascendance is enough of a big cd, remove healing tide.


No, it is not. They are two entirely different things. HTT is a Tranq equivalent. Ascendance is a throughput cooldown that is somewhat similar to Tree of Life or Guardian of Ancient Kings. They both have important roles in our arsenal, and we would need significant buffs if HTT were to be removed.


Just remove healing tide and make AG baseline for ele/enh then give resto a more reliable way to spread heal.
Edited by Kreyyn on 2/23/2013 5:01 AM PST
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90 Troll Shaman
13250
02/23/2013 04:50 AMPosted by Kreyyn
Just remove healing tide and make AG baseline for ele/enh


If you were to remove HTT then AG would be the next best choice. If they could shorten the cd a bit it would make it a much more attractive talent plus assist in spread healing situations. To remove both means a total redesign of 75 as we all know conductivity is crap.
Edited by Harpoa on 2/23/2013 5:24 AM PST
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100 Tauren Shaman
11455
Conductivity is amazing for PvE, and the only problems associated with it appear to be being fixed in the 5.2 patch. You dont appear to be bad players, why are you running HTT in PVE? I am thinking the problem is more you need to have the power over the raid standing in your healing rain.
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