Remove healing tide.

90 Pandaren Monk
12990


My point is: Shaman healing is based way too much around CD usage. HTT, HST, and HR make up a significant portion of their healing (HR is probably OK here since there's a significant mana cost attached). I don't see nearly as much Chain Heal (which is a staple Shaman healing spell) as I did back in Wrath or Cata. CDs shouldn't contribute that much healing in an encounter, but they are required for Shaman to be competitive. I think this is a huge issue.

This also brings up the question of how Shaman perform outside their CDs. It may suggest that their output is lacking. This should be a huge concern for the Resto Shaman community.


I could agree with most of this.

If you want to increase throughput in PvE, I'd say to buff Shaman's basic spell coeff numbers across the board, then maybe nerf Mastery so they aren't so reliant on folks dipping low for decent #s. Good luck getting the Shaman community to agree on anything, though. Some of their key abilities can have varying degrees of effects or usefulness depending on whether you are talking about 10s, 25s, or PvP, and it was a big reason for a lot of the crap that occurred during Cataclysm.

As I also mentioned, Shaman is very much being propped up by their CDs and utility because their baseline healing abilities are so restricted. Their CDs and utilities do a lot to negate that weakness. As hypocritical as it sounds after the homogenization lectures, Blizzard might be ok with that: it's hard to tell unless they specifically say something about it. After all, they *still* haven't given CH a proper fix, not to mention the infamous Shaman "revamp" that turned out so mediocre they are trying to forget they ever said anything. I certainly don't expect anything comprehensive mid-expansion after what happened (or didn't happen) during the last two betas.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
10200
Remove our Tranquility? I don't think so. It heals at the same numbers as a druid's would, and gives us a sustainable cd in tight situations.

Healing rain does more effective healing than it in a single rain. That should be on your list of things to nerf if you want to change something that isn't broken.

Although, I'd vote you take a break and come back at a later date. Nothing is wrong with the class, anything you think may be is based on your skewed vision of what you want the class/spec to be. Play what is fun, don't force changes so your preference is best.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
02/14/2013 09:33 PMPosted by Mehpanda
I don't think so. It heals at the same numbers as a druid's would, and gives us a sustainable cd in tight situations.

Less, actually.
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100 Goblin Shaman
8770
02/13/2013 08:47 AMPosted by Juvenate
You have to admit that there are significant problems for a class if they are required to take a talent that is easily one of their top heals for healing done in an encounter. On top of that this talent requires no thought or decision from the caster.


It doesn't? It's on a 3 minute cooldown, it's completely stupid to spam it when it's off cooldown. I use it when I know big damage is going out- I don't just blindly drop it whenever I feel like it due to "herpaderp" meters.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
02/15/2013 03:58 AMPosted by Jujubiju
I don't just blindly drop it whenever I feel like it due to "herpaderp" meters.


I kind of do, but not for meters. Not blindly or on cd but will drop it at the beginning of a fight where i could go about healing a different way as there is no reason to hold it until 4 minutes into a fight just cause.

Shamans don't complain, they overcome.
Edited by Sadiemay on 2/15/2013 4:38 AM PST
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Remove our Tranquility? I don't think so. It heals at the same numbers as a druid's would, and gives us a sustainable cd in tight situations.

Healing rain does more effective healing than it in a single rain. That should be on your list of things to nerf if you want to change something that isn't broken.

Although, I'd vote you take a break and come back at a later date. Nothing is wrong with the class, anything you think may be is based on your skewed vision of what you want the class/spec to be. Play what is fun, don't force changes so your preference is best.


Did you read the post? It's not that he's asking for a nerf because Healing Tide makes Shaman OP, it's because the totem is way too powerful a talent compared to Ancestral Guidance and Conductivity, and so that talent tier has no choice at all for Resto Shaman. Making Healing Tide Totem baseline and adding a new talent would make the talent tier interesting again (though Conductivity still sucks), but as it is now, no one's taking anything but HTT.

Something's gonna happen to the tier eventually. Blizzard's noticed that HTT is taken most of the time for Resto, and so they're buffing Ancestral Guidance and Conductivity, but even with the buffs, HTT is going to be the main choice. Eventually, they're gonna try even harder to get people to take other talents.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
02/15/2013 05:24 AMPosted by Flintte
Something's gonna happen to the tier eventually. Blizzard's noticed that HTT is taken most of the time


Don't hold your breath. Resto shaman rarely get touched between expacs. We don't even get patch notes. See what 6.0 holds for us.
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
My only real concern at this point is that as a shaman I will wake up and realize that the perfect amount of spirit is the amount that let's me use Healing Rain/HST on CD and other than that just riptide/HW spam. Because getting more mana to use bigger single target/chain heals will be pointless compared to boosting the crit/mastery of those heals.

Oh wait, that happened a month ago when I mathed out stat values for heroicT14 gear.

Chain heal, when contrasted to Radiance+1/3EF, SCK, PoH... it is less than half the healing and more expensive. When your fillers stink, more mana won't help you, except to tank heal.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
02/15/2013 06:57 AMPosted by Pitkanen
Chain heal, when contrasted to Radiance+1/3EF, SCK, PoH... it is less than half the healing and more expensive. When your fillers stink, more mana won't help you


CH has been a touchy spell since 4.0. There are a couple of places to spam it but most of the time not so much. Once it was toned down it hasn't been the same since.

My perfect level of spirit would be wrapped around 20 sec of HS spam without destroying myself.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9855
02/15/2013 05:24 AMPosted by Flintte
it's because the totem is way too powerful a talent compared to Ancestral Guidance and Conductivity, and so that talent tier has no choice at all for Resto Shaman.


Then why not just buff the other two talents on the Tier to make them useful or to compete with HTT? Its not just that HTT is a healing CD, and more powerful than the other two that made me choose it, its because I saw HTT having more uses in raiding, over AG and Conductivity.
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02/15/2013 09:52 AMPosted by Shammyren
it's because the totem is way too powerful a talent compared to Ancestral Guidance and Conductivity, and so that talent tier has no choice at all for Resto Shaman.


Then why not just buff the other two talents on the Tier to make them useful or to compete with HTT? Its not just that HTT is a healing CD, and more powerful than the other two that made me choose it, its because I saw HTT having more uses in raiding, over AG and Conductivity.


They're trying, but they're gonna have to buff the talents a LOT more to make them balanced with HTT.

It's the nature of the talents that make them inherently worse. Ancestral Guidance isn't too bad, but how much you benefit from it is entirely based upon how much healing you can put out in that time, and missing even a second or two because you have to move out of fire or something means that you've wasted a lot of that potential healing. It also affects fewer targets and since its based on direct healing, you're gonna spend a large portion of that short duration casting, only getting in a few heals. It's not that it's a bad talent, per se, since it can do a nice bit of healing, but it's overshadowed by HTT.

Like you said, it's not just that HTT does more healing than AG, it's that it's a lot easier to use. You drop it and then you can continue healing while it stabilizes the raid. It also hits more targets and has a large range, so when you get big damage coming out, it's very easy to use and highly effective. AG could be effective too, but you need to put in more work, so HTT just wins out because its mechanics are more user-friendly.

As for Conductivity, it's just bad. The buff in 5.2 helps a bit, since you don't have to heal or dps a target standing in the Healing Rain to get max benefit, but mechanically, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It only works on single target heals, but if you're in a position where you need to have Healing Rain up and want to keep AoE healing, why would you be casting those direct heals when you could cast a few Chain Heals instead? And it only works in situations where you can get a lot of people stacked up in a Healing Rain. If you could get the whole raid to clump together in a Healing Rain and then spam a bunch of Greater Heals, I guess you could get some good benefit from it, but those situations are rare, and chances are, HTT would still be the better option.

So the mechanics of HTT just make it a lot more convenient to use, even if the other two talents match its output.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
02/15/2013 10:16 AMPosted by Flintte
They're trying, but they're gonna have to buff the talents a LOT more to make them balanced with HTT.


There is almost literally nothing they could do for the other two talents to make them attractive enough to take over HTT.

HTT should be baseline, and they should add a different talent to that tier.
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90 Troll Shaman
13250
02/15/2013 10:22 AMPosted by Taymage
HTT should be baseline, and they should add a different talent to that tier.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/15/2013 10:22 AMPosted by Taymage
They're trying, but they're gonna have to buff the talents a LOT more to make them balanced with HTT.


There is almost literally nothing they could do for the other two talents to make them attractive enough to take over HTT.

HTT should be baseline, and they should add a different talent to that tier.


Well, part of that has to do with the fact that the other two talents are really clunky.
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02/15/2013 10:22 AMPosted by Taymage
They're trying, but they're gonna have to buff the talents a LOT more to make them balanced with HTT.


There is almost literally nothing they could do for the other two talents to make them attractive enough to take over HTT.

HTT should be baseline, and they should add a different talent to that tier.


Yeah, that's the point I was getting at. It's not just the numbers, it's the mechanics. HTT is far more convenient to use and is applicable in a lot more situations.
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90 Troll Shaman
7010
02/14/2013 08:37 PMPosted by Thaimaishu
Good luck getting the Shaman community to agree on anything


I think a nerf to healing tide is required. It's removal unfortunately is an option too. However there is a way you can remove it and not move it at the same time. The Shaman community is really an interesting group of thinkers. And I say that with an inquisitive optimism; knowing that at least one of the many seemingly discordant ideas precipitate a few gems. It's a truly fractal expierence if you understand some of the earth's natural processes. It's not that all of us disagree its that we each have our point to make. I see lots of great ideas, I just want them to see what I have to say aswell.

My vote goes for it current incarnation to be removed. It's to easy, and boring. I think that totem healing should be duplicated while in Ascendance and the new Healing Tide would replace Healing Stream Totem. Maybe healing an additional target. That may not make it equal but it makes the distance needed to be gapped by buffing our filler spells. Chain Heal is a joke and it works against you most of the time healing over healing rain, and Healing stream. So where does it fit in? Ditch healing tide buff Chain Heal imo.

Maybe instead of having Chain heal Generate Tidal Waves it can consume them. Healing rain can be our other spell that grants tidal waves. Chain Heal when consuming a Tidal wave charge could have its jump distance doubled and not attenuate. Therefore making the new glyph 6 second Cd but instant.
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90 Troll Shaman
13250
02/15/2013 12:45 PMPosted by Bodacity
Maybe instead of having Chain heal Generate Tidal Waves it can consume them. Healing rain can be our other spell that grants tidal waves. Chain Heal when consuming a Tidal wave charge could have its jump distance doubled and not attenuate. Therefore making the new glyph 6 second Cd but instant.


The 6 sec cd needs to be removed and ch needs to be affected by TW. Ascendance is already a healing cd in itself and it's burst capacity is high. Picking and choosing what spells are affected by TW is a bad design in my eyes. Your mana pool would be the check that would keep it from being spammable.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
02/15/2013 12:45 PMPosted by Bodacity
I think a nerf to healing tide is required


Why would anyone think this?
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90 Pandaren Monk
12990

I think a nerf to healing tide is required.


I can't agree, because despite how good it is, it's not that good. I did not know that it actually healed for less than DH/Tranq, but if that's the case, I think it's still fine as is since the offset for the lower healing is that a Shaman can cast other spells/move during it. But Shaman's HPS is too low right now for a nerf to any of their healing (Blizzard acknowledged this themselves), and I absolutely do not want to see a Talent Tier 45 part 2.

CotE pre nerf was powerful, maybe even too powerful, but nerfing it down to the level of the other two in an attempt to make them seem less awful only succeeded in turning the whole tier into a snoozefest of worthlessness for any content worth mentioning, which is hands-down the worst possible way to go about it and something no one should ever want, opinions be damned. That's exactly what nerfing Healing Tide would do. Shaman just don't need any tiers like that, let alone two at once.

I agree with the person who said making it baseline and then adding a new talent is the way to do it. Since Blizzard also admitted they are looking at how good this talent is when compared to the other two, but also notice how important it is to Resto keeping competitive HPS, I hope that is the direction they take. It might even happen before 6.0 if they are talking about it now.


Chain Heal is a joke and it works against you most of the time healing over healing rain, and Healing stream. So where does it fit in?


I've been saying since FL (along with quite a few other Shamans) that CH should have been the option for Shamans when the raid spreads out and HR is ineffective. All it would need is a baseline range increase (and possibly a coeff boost) and it'd be good to go.

But that never happened: first we couldn't get it due to game mechanic limitations, then it got slapped onto a Glyph and extra restrictions were added for using it, like some evil genie-esque bastardized mockery of what I was hoping for. It really was implemented terribly, especially since the correct, much better answer seems so unabashedly obvious to me, and is still there. They could put in those fixes right now! Everything is already in the game for it to happen and it'd probably work out well. But nope! Gotta keep up the Shaman Mediocrity Quotas ®, I guess.
Edited by Thaimaishu on 2/15/2013 3:43 PM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
02/15/2013 12:45 PMPosted by Bodacity
My vote goes for it current incarnation to be removed.


I would only vote for that if they systematically altered every healing class similarly as well.

I think CH's redesign in Cataclysm was spot-on. If "class equivalents" are massively overshadowing the spell, then they are overperforming their role and need to be similarly marginalized--another significant element of Shaman's prized decision making processes that separate the good from the great. That's as far as I can take my opinion on CH since it's so unpopular, lol.
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