Remove healing tide.

100 Draenei Shaman
11960
I can't agree, because despite how good it is, it's not that good. I did not know that it actually healed for less than DH/Tranq, but if that's the case, I think it's still fine as is since the offset for the lower healing is that a Shaman can cast other spells/move during it


Thanks to healer OT request I actually ran some numbers on these spells to see which was the most powerful. I express it in total base healing + total spellpower coefficient because I know that not all classes have the same spellpower even in BiS gear. Thus to calculate the minimum amount of healing your CD will do, simply multiply the Spell Power Coefficient and your Spell Power, then add the Base Healing number. No Haste, Critical Strike, or Mastery have been included, but I'll talk a bit about that after the numbers:


Spell Base Healing Spell Power Coefficient

Divine Hymn 199675 38.55
Healing Tide Totem 277425 27.225
Tranquility 304100 28.06


* Divine Hymn includes the assumption that you would be in Sanctuary Chakra when casting, but does not assume that the 10% healing buff applies to further DH ticks since it may not heal the same people more than once.
* Healing Tide Totem includes Purification

So just looking at the base numbers, Healing Tide Totem scales worse with Spell Power than the other two raid-wide healing cooldowns, and if this were the whole picture, then yes, it would heal for less than Tranq or Divine Hymn.

However, there are a few important things to note:

While Haste does make the channelled portion of Tranquility and Divine Hymn faster - and gives extra ticks on the Tranquility HoT left behind by the unaffected-by-Haste direct healing hits - Healing Tide Totem gains way more extra healing from Haste than the other cooldowns do. This is a huge advantage.

Mastery affects all three cooldowns, but due to the way Shaman Mastery provides a much larger effect than Holy Priest or Resto Druid Mastery, Mastery can generate a much, much greater gain for Healing Tide Totem than it does for Divine Hymn or Tranquility.

Healing Tide Totem costs us a single, 1-second GCD, and we can continue to cast other spells, whereas Holy Priests and Restoration Druids must channel their cooldown. This is another huge advantage. We can continue to operate at full throughput as well as put out a strong CD.

Healing Tide Totem does not hamper your movement in any way, so is valuable during movement-intensive fights as well as during stand-in-one-place fights. If you take Totemic Projection (as I do, because projecting totems is just freaking amazing), you can even reposition it to follow a highly mobile raid group. However, Tranquility and Divine Hymn both root the caster in place - meaning if fire spawns on them or they must move for any other reason, they must interrupt the cast - and on a mobile fight players may outrange its effects. Obviously a Druid in a raid group with a Shaman can Symbiosis them for Spiritwalker's Grace, but there's still nothing a Holy Priest can do about it.

Healing Tide Totem is by far the most powerful and flexible healing CD of the three. And I think we need it to remain that way given our other deficiencies at spread-healing. But does it need to be this powerful? I'm not sure.
Edited by Dayani on 2/15/2013 5:39 PM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
Healing Tide Totem costs us a single, 1-second GCD, and we can continue to cast other spells, whereas Holy Priests and Restoration Druids must channel their cooldown. This is another huge advantage. We can continue to operate at full throughput as well as put out a strong CD.


This is the only advantage I feel that causes the spell to begin spilling over into overpowered, but I'm too selfish to begin recommending nerfs. :-)
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12515
While Haste does make the channelled portion of Tranquility and Divine Hymn faster, it does not add any additional healing to those spells. For Healing Tide Totem, additional healing is generated through Haste. This gives Healing Tide Totem a tremendous advantage.

This is not true. Haste adds ticks to DH. I'm pretty sure it works for Tranq too.
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100 Draenei Shaman
11960
Hmm Kaels I was pretty sure that was not the case for Divine Hymn. You are right about extra ticks on the Tranq HoT, I forgot about that and am gonna fix that up, but that does not come close at all to a full extra pulse of HTT.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/15/2013 05:35 PMPosted by Kaels
While Haste does make the channelled portion of Tranquility and Divine Hymn faster, it does not add any additional healing to those spells. For Healing Tide Totem, additional healing is generated through Haste. This gives Healing Tide Totem a tremendous advantage.

This is not true. Haste adds ticks to DH. I'm pretty sure it works for Tranq too.


I'm fairly certain they broke the Haste interaction with DH when 5.0 dropped.
Edited by Tiriél on 2/15/2013 5:39 PM PST
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
While Haste does make the channelled portion of Tranquility and Divine Hymn faster, it does not add any additional healing to those spells

This is not true, Tranq hot (which is where the brunt of our healing comes from) gains 1 more tick, which is additional healing. Which also means there's more up-front healing gained because the intervals between the heals are faster.
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100 Draenei Shaman
11960
02/15/2013 05:40 PMPosted by Fleurs
While Haste does make the channelled portion of Tranquility and Divine Hymn faster, it does not add any additional healing to those spells

This is not true, Tranq hot (which is where the brunt of our healing comes from) gains 1 more tick, which is additional healing. Which also means there's more up-front healing gained because the intervals between the heals are faster.


Yeah I fixed the HoT bit :)
I'm not sure that I agree with your assessment that there is "more up-front healing gained" because the intervals between the heals are faster. Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean.
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100 Draenei Shaman
11960
1 extra tick on all applications of the Tranq HoT:

24672 + (2.272 * Spell Power)

1 extra tick on HTT:

46238 + (4.5375 * Spell Power)
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90 Pandaren Monk
12990
02/15/2013 05:35 PMPosted by Kaels
While Haste does make the channelled portion of Tranquility and Divine Hymn faster, it does not add any additional healing to those spells. For Healing Tide Totem, additional healing is generated through Haste. This gives Healing Tide Totem a tremendous advantage.

This is not true. Haste adds ticks to DH. I'm pretty sure it works for Tranq too.


I was wondering about this.

I also think it's debatable just how much Shaman's Mastery is going to add to it vs the other two and their respective masteries. I'm sure it will add more sometimes, but I have a problem with the assertion that it will always be more, or even be more for a majority of the time.

I can agree that it is the most flexible of the three, and by extension it can be the most powerful depending on the situation, but I can't agree it's the most objectively powerful. Given ideal conditions for each spell (and I have no idea how common/rare those are this tier), it looks like HTT's raw healing will still be less, before factoring in Mastery (since I really dunno how to do that properly). I also probably don't have to say this more than I already have, but this is basically Shaman's entire answer to spread healing/high movement situations. Neutering it/removing it and causing them to fall back on SWG/ST healing again would probably be disastrous.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
02/15/2013 05:44 PMPosted by Dayani
Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean.

I think Sensations just explained to you in IRC.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/15/2013 05:52 PMPosted by Thaimaishu

This is not true. Haste adds ticks to DH. I'm pretty sure it works for Tranq too.


I was wondering about this.

I also think it's debatable just how much Shaman's Mastery is going to add to it vs the other two and their respective masteries. I'm sure it will add more sometimes, but I have a problem with the assertion that it will always be more, or even be more for a majority of the time.

I can agree that it is the most flexible of the three, and by extension it can be the most powerful depending on the situation, but I can't agree it's the most objectively powerful. Given ideal conditions for each spell (and I have no idea how common/rare those are this tier), it looks like HTT's raw healing will still be less, before factoring in Mastery (since I really dunno how to do that properly). I also probably don't have to say this more than I already have, but this is basically Shaman's entire answer to spread healing/high movement situations. Neutering it/removing it and causing them to fall back on SWG/ST healing again would probably be disastrous.


Well, if it's an Elemental or Enh Shaman, the Mastery won't contribute anyway.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
8360
Replace with some other type of ability, and make these changes to conductivity!

40 yard range healing rain
lightning bolt heals allies for 200% of the initial damage done instead of 50%. (resto only perhaps to avoid ele being an op 0.5 healer).

Would be so much fun!

Seriously though... would be nice to remove healing tide (maybe give resto a nerfed baseline version) so that we can take a buffed conductivity, so much more fun.

conductivity is forever terrible.... it buffs the healing done on our already strongest heal (aside from healing tide). More appropriate to make conductivity heal for 50% instead of the 20 or 30% it is, nurf healing tide by 30%, and give us a passive 5% more healing done. Balances that tier, while not nurfing our overall healing throughput.

dunno why you're so fixed on conductivity lol....
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100 Blood Elf Mage
17990
But does it need to be this powerful? I'm not sure.


To me, the idea of talking about nerfing it is ludicrous. It shouldn't even be considered unless they are going to make other changes first, such as increasing the distance on chain heal. I mean it shouldn't even be open for discussion.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
Another thing that has to be taken into consideration when comparing HTT to Tranq and DH is that while HTT does not need to be channeled, it does have the limitation that it can not be used at the same time as another water totem (i.e HST, MTT). In practice, this ends up cutting into HST uptime, which would be like Tranq or DH removing active rejuv or PoM applications.

Sure, you can argue that if you plan your placement around HST not being active, it doesn't impact the uptime. The reality is, HTT is a burst CD, and to get the most out of it, you have to use it when the burst damage goes off, whether or not a HST (or god forbid MTT) is active. If you try waiting for them to expire, the damage is often already healed up to the point HTT is no longer worth using, which often ends up meaning you get to use it less during the fight, etc.

It's definitely not as restrictive as needing to channel DH/Tranq, but is still a relevant limitation. Plus, on any fight where being able to use Tranq while moving is a big benefit, a resto druid will generally just Symbiosis a Shaman for SWG anyway.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
17990
02/15/2013 05:52 PMPosted by Thaimaishu
I also think it's debatable just how much Shaman's Mastery is going to add to it vs the other two and their respective masteries. I'm sure it will add more sometimes, but I have a problem with the assertion that it will always be more, or even be more for a majority of the time.


Given HTT is likely to be dropped at an "oh ****" type moment, the health of the raid group is going to be lowish, so yeah, Mastery will help.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12990


Well, if it's an Elemental or Enh Shaman, the Mastery won't contribute anyway.


By ideal conditions, I was assuming healer spec for best raw healing output. Tranq and DH still work best in healing specs too, right? I'm just eyeballing a bit with some prior experience and napkin math in between finishing a paper. I don't think Blizzard is super concerned about Ele/Enh HPS getting hit by a theoretical HTT nerf anyway.

02/15/2013 06:00 PMPosted by Taymage
I also think it's debatable just how much Shaman's Mastery is going to add to it vs the other two and their respective masteries. I'm sure it will add more sometimes, but I have a problem with the assertion that it will always be more, or even be more for a majority of the time.


Given HTT is likely to be dropped at an "oh ****" type moment, the health of the raid group is going to be lowish, so yeah, Mastery will help.


I'm sure it will, but can you say with certainty that Shaman's will always add more than the other two? That was my main issue, since Shaman Mastery has been damn near impossible to extensively math out as long as it's been around.
Edited by Thaimaishu on 2/15/2013 6:05 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110


Well, if it's an Elemental or Enh Shaman, the Mastery won't contribute anyway.


By ideal conditions, I was assuming healer spec for best raw healing output. Tranq and DH still work best in healing specs too, right? I'm just eyeballing a bit with some prior experience and napkin math in between finishing a paper. I don't think Blizzard is super concerned about Ele/Enh HPS getting hit by a theoretical HTT nerf anyway.


Tranq is really really strong with Boomkin, from what I've seen. I have not seen a visible difference in the healing it provides vs. a Resto Druid. The only downside is that it's on a 7 min CD (and, obviously, the loss of DPS while channeling it).
Edited by Tiriél on 2/15/2013 6:03 PM PST
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
Another thing that has to be taken into consideration when comparing HTT to Tranq and DH is that while HTT does not need to be channeled, it does have the limitation that it can not be used at the same time as another water totem (i.e HST, MTT). In practice, this ends up cutting into HST uptime, which would be like Tranq or DH removing active rejuv or PoM applications.

Sure, you can argue that if you plan your placement around HST not being active, it doesn't impact the uptime. The reality is, HTT is a burst CD, and to get the most out of it, you have to use it when the burst damage goes off, whether or not a HST (or god forbid MTT) is active. If you try waiting for them to expire, the damage is often already healed up to the point HTT is no longer worth using, which often ends up meaning you get to use it less during the fight, etc.

It's definitely not as restrictive as needing to channel DH/Tranq, but is still a relevant limitation. Plus, on any fight where being able to use Tranq while moving is a big benefit, a resto druid will generally just Symbiosis a Shaman for SWG anyway.

How does it feel to just be a manabot, Tiberria?
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
02/15/2013 05:52 PMPosted by Thaimaishu

This is not true. Haste adds ticks to DH. I'm pretty sure it works for Tranq too.


I was wondering about this.

I also think it's debatable just how much Shaman's Mastery is going to add to it vs the other two and their respective masteries. I'm sure it will add more sometimes, but I have a problem with the assertion that it will always be more, or even be more for a majority of the time.

I can agree that it is the most flexible of the three, and by extension it can be the most powerful depending on the situation, but I can't agree it's the most objectively powerful. Given ideal conditions for each spell (and I have no idea how common/rare those are this tier), it looks like HTT's raw healing will still be less, before factoring in Mastery (since I really dunno how to do that properly). I also probably don't have to say this more than I already have, but this is basically Shaman's entire answer to spread healing/high movement situations. Neutering it/removing it and causing them to fall back on SWG/ST healing again would probably be disastrous.


The average Resto Shaman has around 50% Mastery, and Healing Tide is a smart heal, so if the average player HP that it heals is 50%, it adds 25% additional healing over and above the baseline. How high is typical Holy Priest and Resto Druid mastery levels (assuming the BoM buff of course)? If they are near or exceed 25%, chances are they benefit DH/Tranq more than Deep Healing benefits HTT.

Of course, the Deep Healing benefit can scale up to 50% (or even as high as 70% if you prioritize mastery over crit). However, I don't think it's safe to assume the HP average is any less than 50% given the way damage patterns typically work on fights outside of gimmick fights like Chimaeron.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
Another thing that has to be taken into consideration when comparing HTT to Tranq and DH is that while HTT does not need to be channeled, it does have the limitation that it can not be used at the same time as another water totem (i.e HST, MTT). In practice, this ends up cutting into HST uptime, which would be like Tranq or DH removing active rejuv or PoM applications.

Sure, you can argue that if you plan your placement around HST not being active, it doesn't impact the uptime. The reality is, HTT is a burst CD, and to get the most out of it, you have to use it when the burst damage goes off, whether or not a HST (or god forbid MTT) is active. If you try waiting for them to expire, the damage is often already healed up to the point HTT is no longer worth using, which often ends up meaning you get to use it less during the fight, etc.

It's definitely not as restrictive as needing to channel DH/Tranq, but is still a relevant limitation. Plus, on any fight where being able to use Tranq while moving is a big benefit, a resto druid will generally just Symbiosis a Shaman for SWG anyway.

How does it feel to just be a manabot, Tiberria?

?
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