Idea to fight botting

90 Night Elf Warrior
14465
ITT: People assuming people on a Chinese WoW client is going to get a question in English.


ITT: people who fail to grasp the point.


Not really. I'm not really supporting the idea, but it's definitely not impossible to create some sort of system that checks to see if you're a human. It's like you've never heard of captcha.

Humoring the suggestion you could change the Q/A to a simple drawing session like the OP originally stated. Then put the words of "Trace the line" in the top five, or whatever number, of languages WoW players use. I'm willing to bet there's probably five or so languages that over 90% of players use. Ten tops. To think that some sort of system can't be created is extremely naive.

Even with no instructions presented (not that it would be a good system)...if you can't figure out that you've been given some sort of pencil cursor, and there's a hollowed out line in front of you then I probably don't want you in my BG anyways.
Edited by Belmorec on 2/12/2013 10:19 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
8905
I bet nobody at Blizzard has heard of or thought of this amazing idea! They could call it something like a "Completely Automated Public Turing test to tell Computers and Humans Apart"!

How many people own a smartphone in this age? I myself don't, but I am the only one of my lengthy list of friends who doesn't. You could easily set up a video feed of the captcha area to your smart phone and have an alarm whenever it appears. At work? Bot running at home? Pull out your phone, enter the captcha, bot plays the battleground and never gets reported afk because people think captcha solved the issue.

That's just one of several workarounds for captcha. Captcha should not be implemented into WoW. As Pinata just said;

Blizz should fix their own bot problem, *without* harassing us.
The sarcasm was, apparently, lost on you...but if I did feel differently, telling me that someone else just said something isn't exactly convincing ;)
Edited by Geezushkrist on 2/12/2013 10:27 AM PST
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96 Human Rogue
2880
The problem with botting is that for every blizzard employee investigating and working to eliminate a bot program, there's a thousand or so working on a new bot program. This means Blizzard will forever be playing catchup.

My coding knowledge is extremely limited, but seems to me there's only two surefire ways to stop botting.

1) Remove the incentive

2) Allow Warden to be MUCH more invasive on your system.

Neither seem very likely.
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02/12/2013 10:30 AMPosted by Esclamayshun
1) Remove the incentive

Which would be baseline gear. This also removes the incentive to win and would turn every battleground in to a giant "fighting in the roads" fest. More so than it already is.

02/12/2013 10:30 AMPosted by Esclamayshun
2) Allow Warden to be MUCH more invasive on your system.

As you said, would be very unlikely.

They need to stop banning in waves. The scare tactics aren't working.
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90 Undead Warlock
7580
02/12/2013 10:34 AMPosted by Pozy
Which would be baseline gear.


No, they could take away honor for losing. Losers should not be rewarded :)
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02/12/2013 10:37 AMPosted by Jugaa
No, they could take away honor for losing

Wouldn't that exacerbate the "Hurry up and lose so I can requeue/let them win" situation?
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90 Undead Warlock
7580
02/12/2013 10:48 AMPosted by Pozy
Wouldn't that exacerbate the "Hurry up and lose so I can requeue/let them win" situation?


Possibly, and those types of people deserve very little honor. It would be unfortunate to be put in their group, but chances of seeing them again are very unlikely. Only people it hurts in the long run are those types
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85 Dwarf Priest
9195
02/12/2013 10:19 AMPosted by Belmorec


ITT: people who fail to grasp the point.


Not really. I'm not really supporting the idea, but it's definitely not impossible to create some sort of system that checks to see if you're a human. It's like you've never heard of captcha.

Humoring the suggestion you could change the Q/A to a simple drawing session like the OP originally stated. Then put the words of "Trace the line" in the top five, or whatever number, of languages WoW players use. I'm willing to bet there's probably five or so languages that over 90% of players use. Ten tops. To think that some sort of system can't be created is extremely naive.

Even with no instructions presented (not that it would be a good system)...if you can't figure out that you've been given some sort of pencil cursor, and there's a hollowed out line in front of you then I probably don't want you in my BG anyways.


These types of systems have the potential to:

1) Discriminate against players who may be challenged by whatever interface/language they choose to use.

2) Inconvenience well meaning players who just don't want to be hassled by having to pass a test to play the game

The reality is that this system is going to penalize MILLIONS of players in order to screen out a relatively small number of bots run by people who will probably be able to find a workaround.

So while we are all here proving we are human every game, the botters are botting away, completely uninconvenienced and having a hearty guffaw at the rest of us.
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85 Dwarf Priest
9195
What if someone is learning impaired i dont think theyd be playing wow

god damn how hard is it to type in ;barks;


You are a horrible human being.
Edited by Killidrax on 2/12/2013 1:06 PM PST
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55 Goblin Death Knight
100
i rather have blizzard implement ascii captions, they dont have to be all squigly they can make them perfectably readable since it would basically destroy botting by making people type some random word every bg match
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90 Night Elf Warrior
14465
02/12/2013 11:42 AMPosted by Killidrax
1) Discriminate against players who may be challenged by whatever interface/language they choose to use.


And you think these people play WoW? We've already covered language so anyone who is incapable of drawing, a square, circle, triangle, rectangle, or other simple shapes (when given directions to as well) due to being unintelligent is probably incapable of playing WoW. I mean you'd have to have an IQ below room temp and if that's the case you're probably not going to be sitting in front of WoW unintended.

02/12/2013 11:42 AMPosted by Killidrax
2) Inconvenience well meaning players who just don't want to be hassled by having to pass a test to play the game


NOT 10 SECONDS OF MY LIFE PER BG.

I WAS SO PLANNING TO SIT THERE AFK FOR THE FIRST MINUTE OF THE BG LIKE I ALWAYS DID BUT THEN BLIZZARD MADE ME DRAW A SQUARE FOR THE FIRST TEN SECONDS. THAT'S TEN SECONDS I COULD HAVE USED STARING AT THE GATE.

I mean really?

02/12/2013 11:42 AMPosted by Killidrax
The reality is that this system is going to penalize MILLIONS of players


I already said I'm not really advocating for the idea. I just think you're naive for thinking you can't create some sort of system to do it, which is what you originally said. And penalized is a pretty harsh term. I don't know about you, but if I had to draw a random simple object for the first 10 seconds of every BG I entered I really couldn't care less. What else am I going to do?

in order to screen out a relatively small number of bots run by people who will probably be able to find a workaround.


Not likely, not if implemented properly at least. Like I said, you've clearly never heard of captcha, and it's pretty apparent your computer knowledge is limited. So instead you make baseless assumptions because you just assume computer nerds/botters are going to be able to figure a way around it.
Edited by Belmorec on 2/12/2013 1:36 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
16170
02/12/2013 07:58 AMPosted by Piñata
Hence the multi-choice option...


オレンジは何色ですか?

1. 黄色
2. ブルー
3. 赤
4. オレンジ

Quick, which is it? Multiple guess, go go go!


02/12/2013 08:22 AMPosted by Pozy
オレンジは何色ですか?


日文?! 你不会讲中文?


Where do I pick up my gold?
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90 Tauren Paladin
8615
Unfortunately programmers are brilliant and have circumvented all of these attempts at thwarting bots to the point that sometimes when I register for a forum or website, the text I'm required to type is so blurred I can barely make it out. I wouldn't want to spend the first 30 seconds of my BG prep time trying to sort out a question.

Blizzard bans many, many, MANY accounts but new accounts are made and abused. It's the nature of the users, alas, not Blizzard's defense system.
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85 Dwarf Priest
9195
1) Discriminate against players who may be challenged by whatever interface/language they choose to use.


And you think these people play WoW? We've already covered language so anyone who is incapable of drawing, a square, circle, triangle, rectangle, or other simple shapes (when given directions to as well) due to being unintelligent is probably incapable of playing WoW. I mean you'd have to have an IQ below room temp and if that's the case you're probably not going to be sitting in front of WoW unintended.


Yes, in my opinion there are people out there who are challenged enough to not be able to perform these actions and it would be tragic if they were unable to continue to enjoy the game if this were implemented.

And to be quite honest, I would rather lose games with someone challenged as such than win games with people such as yourself who can't think about anyone other than themselves.

I don't mean to sound like an !@#, but I just feel as though your position on how this would impact well meaning, but challenged players abhorrent.

NOT 10 SECONDS OF MY LIFE PER BG.

I WAS SO PLANNING TO SIT THERE AFK FOR THE FIRST MINUTE OF THE BG LIKE I ALWAYS DID BUT THEN BLIZZARD MADE ME DRAW A SQUARE FOR THE FIRST TEN SECONDS. THAT'S TEN SECONDS I COULD HAVE USED STARING AT THE GATE.

I mean really?


Yes, really.

Again, when you consider the issue in the aggregate, that's millions of players spending 15 seconds every BG they play.

Not likely, not if implemented properly at least. Like I said, you've clearly never heard of captcha, and it's pretty apparent your computer knowledge is limited. So instead you make baseless assumptions because you just assume computer nerds/botters are going to be able to figure a way around it.


I'm more than aware of what captcha is and how it works. I also have a decent grasp on "computer knowledge". My point is this: the people who make these bots make A LOT of money off selling the pathing programs. You think that Blizzard will introduce captcha or some other screen and these companies are just going to throw their hands up in the air and go out of business? Not likely.
Edited by Killidrax on 2/12/2013 3:15 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Warrior
14465
02/12/2013 03:13 PMPosted by Killidrax
Yes, in my opinion there are people out there who are challenged enough to not be able to perform these actions and it would be tragic if they were unable to continue to enjoy the game if this were implemented.


You're right there are probably some. And white guys occasionally make good gang members.

Let me ask you this: How many people do you think have this inability to comprehend drawing something that play WoW? It can't be much. You're looking at, what like 10 million subscribers to this game right now? I would say probably 200,000 people are incapable of passing at the most, probably not even that much. So what you're saying is because of this 2% of a playerbase that can't pass a test that we shouldn't implement it. You want to talk about the whole picture don't you? I say any solution to any problem that helps out 98% of the community is better than not doing something about it just to satisfy the 2%. If you can't play the game you can't play the game. If you can't meet the requirements you can't meet the requirements.

What's next? You're going to demand that nerfs the begeebies out of heroic raid content so that 2% can also experience "heroic" raids, get the achievement, title, gear and mounts?

Honestly the argument is crap either way you look at it. I sincerely doubt they are even 100,000 players incapable of passing the test. And if they can't actually pass the test how are they even playing WoW, or even learned to get into a BG for that matter? I'm sorry, but when I think of a person being incapable of following the instructions to draw a square I can't help but assume their method of playing WoW would be literally slamming their keyboard, and requiring aid to even log onto the game in the first place.

Learning disabilities are one thing. Incapable of reading a sentence that says draw a square, and being incapable of drawing a simple object (ie: square, triangle, circle) is entirely different. Pretty sure I could give those instructions to a 6 year old and get a correct answer. So what you're saying is this type of system would affect all the players under the age of 6. Which I'm sure is just a staggering % of the playerbase.

Another fun fact: Of the number I threw out...that's assuming they all PvP. Hint: Not all of them do.

02/12/2013 03:13 PMPosted by Killidrax
I don't mean to sound like an !@#, but I just feel as though your position on how this would impact well meaning, but challenged players abhorrent.


And I think you're grossly overreacting.

02/12/2013 03:13 PMPosted by Killidrax
Again, when you consider the issue in the aggregate, that's millions of players spending 15 seconds every BG they play.


Irrelevant. You have a minute when the BG starts to sit there and do nothing. Maybe if nothing else the test doesn't happen if you enter a BG in progress.

02/12/2013 03:13 PMPosted by Killidrax
I'm more than aware of what captcha is and how it works. I also have a decent grasp on "computer knowledge".


Thus far you haven't proven it. You continue to say it's not possible, and that botters will, without a doubt, find a way around it. The way technology tends to work, and stopping bot programs, or hackers, or computers from accessing something only a human can access is it being a repetitive system.

Human creates website. Computers are made to sign up. Humans don't like this and create captcha. Computers can't get past it. Computers are designed to get around it. Captcha is made more complex. Computers can't get past it. Computers are designed to be better at getting through it. Eventually a new method gets created, and we start the process all over.

My point is this: the people who make these bots make A LOT of money off selling the pathing programs. You think that Blizzard will introduce captcha or some other screen and these companies are just going to throw their hands up in the air and go out of business? Not likely.


When did I say they would just throw in the towel and say we had a good run? They will work to try to get around it. And some will succeed. But guess what? Any of the companies that sell bots that succeed aren't going to share it with their competitors. You would kill a lot of bots by doing this.

Captcha isn't 100% effective, but it requires time, resources, and technology advances. Some of these companies aren't going to have access to it all, and yes they will see a hit in sales, and some probably will go out of business (not really sure how many companies are out there, I only know of like two popular ones).
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85 Dwarf Priest
9195

Let me ask you this: How many people do you think have this inability to comprehend drawing something that play WoW? It can't be much. You're looking at, what like 10 million subscribers to this game right now? I would say probably 200,000 people are incapable of passing at the most, probably not even that much. So what you're saying is because of this 2% of a playerbase that can't pass a test that we shouldn't implement it. You want to talk about the whole picture don't you? I say any solution to any problem that helps out 98% of the community is better than not doing something about it just to satisfy the 2%. If you can't play the game you can't play the game. If you can't meet the requirements you can't meet the requirements.

What's next? You're going to demand that nerfs the begeebies out of heroic raid content so that 2% can also experience "heroic" raids, get the achievement, title, gear and mounts?

Honestly the argument is crap either way you look at it. I sincerely doubt they are even 100,000 players incapable of passing the test. And if they can't actually pass the test how are they even playing WoW, or even learned to get into a BG for that matter? I'm sorry, but when I think of a person being incapable of following the instructions to draw a square I can't help but assume their method of playing WoW would be literally slamming their keyboard, and requiring aid to even log onto the game in the first place.

Learning disabilities are one thing. Incapable of reading a sentence that says draw a square, and being incapable of drawing a simple object (ie: square, triangle, circle) is entirely different. Pretty sure I could give those instructions to a 6 year old and get a correct answer. So what you're saying is this type of system would affect all the players under the age of 6. Which I'm sure is just a staggering % of the playerbase.

Another fun fact: Of the number I threw out...that's assuming they all PvP. Hint: Not all of them do.

I don't mean to sound like an !@#, but I just feel as though your position on how this would impact well meaning, but challenged players abhorrent.


And I think you're grossly overreacting.

Again, when you consider the issue in the aggregate, that's millions of players spending 15 seconds every BG they play.


Irrelevant. You have a minute when the BG starts to sit there and do nothing. Maybe if nothing else the test doesn't happen if you enter a BG in progress.

I'm more than aware of what captcha is and how it works. I also have a decent grasp on "computer knowledge".


Thus far you haven't proven it. You continue to say it's not possible, and that botters will, without a doubt, find a way around it. The way technology tends to work, and stopping bot programs, or hackers, or computers from accessing something only a human can access is it being a repetitive system.

Human creates website. Computers are made to sign up. Humans don't like this and create captcha. Computers can't get past it. Computers are designed to get around it. Captcha is made more complex. Computers can't get past it. Computers are designed to be better at getting through it. Eventually a new method gets created, and we start the process all over.

My point is this: the people who make these bots make A LOT of money off selling the pathing programs. You think that Blizzard will introduce captcha or some other screen and these companies are just going to throw their hands up in the air and go out of business? Not likely.


When did I say they would just throw in the towel and say we had a good run? They will work to try to get around it. And some will succeed. But guess what? Any of the companies that sell bots that succeed aren't going to share it with their competitors. You would kill a lot of bots by doing this.

Captcha isn't 100% effective, but it requires time, resources, and technology advances. Some of these companies aren't going to have access to it all, and yes they will see a hit in sales, and some probably will go out of business (not really sure how many companies are out there, I only know of like two popular ones).


Thank you for your novel.

I'm sure you would be just fine and dandy if you woke up tomorrow to find that Blizzard made a change to their game which made a portion of it which you enjoy and have invested a lot of time into, completely inaccessible.

I personally don't care if it's 1 person or a million people, I think it would be extremely unfortunate, especially since the solution isn't fixing a gamebreaking issue.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
14465
02/12/2013 05:33 PMPosted by Killidrax
I'm sure you would be just fine and dandy if you woke up tomorrow to find that Blizzard made a change to their game which made a portion of it which you enjoy and have invested a lot of time into, completely inaccessible.


Drawing squares: It now makes your content inaccessible.
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85 Dwarf Priest
9195
02/12/2013 06:39 PMPosted by Belmorec
I'm sure you would be just fine and dandy if you woke up tomorrow to find that Blizzard made a change to their game which made a portion of it which you enjoy and have invested a lot of time into, completely inaccessible.


Drawing squares: It now makes your content inaccessible.


If only this entire conversation revolved around drawing squares.

But it doesn't.
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