Canon Mary-Sues/Gary-Stus

88 Night Elf Rogue
3065
I love MoP and pretty much everything lore-wise that comes with it, however something that has been bothering me is that I can't find any true character flaws in the pandaren as a whole. Do they have some things wrong as a race or are they just chill as hell?

I can't really truly love the new race until I can view them as rounded characters.
Is there something I just haven't picked up on yet? Do pandaren have a dark side? Or are they doomed to fill the ranks of Sue/Stu-dom? (This would be a shame- as I really think there's a lot of potential here)

On a further note, what other playable races do you see as too goody-two-shoes? Are there any that are generally viewed as better than others but have canonical proof of not being perfect?

I'd like to hear your thoughts!
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56 Night Elf Rogue
3585
Pandaren strive for balance and inner peace. That dose not mean they are always so successful. Pandaren so fall victim to anger and sadness just like any other race. In the case of Pandaria, we see plenty Pandarens infested by the Sha.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6655
You could also interpret the Pandaren as being pretty weak, at least culturally. They:

-Were unable to destroy the sha which now infest their lands, just jailing them for centuries
-Were unable to get rid of the mogu and other monsters which infest their lands. Considering how monstrous the mogu were to the Pandaren, this is completely shocking.
-Unable to annihilate the mantid, a species which has plagued Pandaria from it's origins
-Need the Alliance and Horde to solve all of their problems (some of which were caused by the factions, but these issues had been mounting already)

The Pandaren have been in power for quite a while now, it's surprising so many of these issues exist, especially considering how small Pandaria is compared to Azeroth. They're just content to sit on their farms rather than take action. Major threats to Azeroth have been dealt with pretty promptly by the Alliance and Horde, but the Pandaren need help dealing with issues that they've let be for centuries. They lack the conviction that the Alliance, Horde, and other organizations (Argent Crusade, Sha'tar, Earthen Ring) have in spades.

tl;dr- They're lazy.
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90 Orc Warrior
7470
02/12/2013 09:23 PMPosted by Ashenial
I can't find any true character flaws in the pandaren as a whole. Do they have some things wrong as a race or are they just chill as hell?


I actually dislike the smug bastards. They are fat, lazy, condescending and are always getting others to go do the wet work that they have neglected to do for themselves while they get gorged and drunk 24/7. They are insufferably smug, know it all and idle. We have airships and they have kites. We pacified Outlands and they made noodles. We contained the Lich King and the Scourge and they can't pacify the Hozen. Their little tails coming out of their pants looks like they are squeezing out a poopy. Honestly they couldn't make a pocket for that? Just because it is hanging out the back instead of hanging out the front, it is still hanging out.
Zip it up, furball!

What's black and white and red all over? No, not a newspaper.

Pandaria after we've painted the damned place.

(Did that help?)
Edited by Stonzgrinda on 2/13/2013 12:33 AM PST
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90 Orc Warrior
7470
02/12/2013 09:23 PMPosted by Ashenial
On a further note, what other playable races do you see as too goody-two-shoes? Are there any that are generally viewed as better than others but have canonical proof of not being perfect?


Draenei. I hear them being described incomparably virtuous, angelic and godlike, yada yada. But consider this - in their inter-planetary flight from the Burning Legion through the cosmos, they knew the Burning Legion was following them, and they knew the Burning Legion would destroy or corrupt each planet and each native race where the Draenei tried to hide. Despite this knowledge they went from planet to planet, over and over and warned no one at any of the places they fled to!

Think about the orcs prior to their deceitful corruption by Sargeras. If they had had a heads up would they have been on their guard? If the Draenei had been candid and upfront about what pursued them, they would have had allies probably, and certainly the native races would have been more on guard.

The "noble" Draenei could have spread warning through the cosmos. They could have informed and advised the ignorant and innocent worlds. They could have galvanized a prepared resistance to the Burning Legion. They did none of these things. They sat on this secret, took care of themselves, and bugged out every time the Burning Legion found them.

And Naaru. "Beings of Light." What have you seen them accomplish? Get their butts kicked by the Burning Legion, and one old sick vampiric one in Nagrand draws orc souls to it where they are consumed. You trust these alien crystal soul-suckers? Because one of them hands out obsolete bling in Shattrath? I've got beach front property in Shadowmoon to sell you if you do...
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90 Goblin Warlock
11295
If you pay attention to the quests, there's plenty of instances where good pandaren go bad.

In Pandaria, it is a threat to your life and everyone else's life if your emotions go out of control. Having negative emotions manifest and destroy you can do that, I guess. Townlong Steppes has a few stories of less-than-upstanding bears.

Let's not forget the Jade Witch, either.
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How can you possibly view Pandaren characters as being anything but round? Is your standard Therazane? :O

Um... that aside!

I believe it was Lorewalker Cho in the Jade Forest quests that says Pandaren are extremely focused upon the moment, even to their detriment. It sounds like a positive quality to me, but I suppose there are situations where it will be unfavorable.

In addition, posters above have already pointed out that the Pandaren can be affected strongly by their emotions, and their ideals of harmony seem to have allowed several hostile races to grow into threats.

Lastly, as an out of character observation, I think that their philosophy, while interesting, is not all that practical and portrays emotions as being rather black and white. Isn't there a proper evil to be angry at, a proper enemy to act in violence against, tragedies worth despairing, and threats that deserve our fear?

That's not to say these things can't overwhelm you and encourage negative actions... but surely a complex human can develop character through acknowledging and managing these feelings. I personally think a "be angry, and sin not," concept is more interesting and realistic than striving for inhuman peace without emotion as a goal in itself.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
8330
Draenei. I hear them being described incomparably virtuous, angelic and godlike, yada yada. But consider this - in their inter-planetary flight from the Burning Legion through the cosmos, they knew the Burning Legion was following them, and they knew the Burning Legion would destroy or corrupt each planet and each native race where the Draenei tried to hide. Despite this knowledge they went from planet to planet, over and over and warned no one at any of the places they fled to!

Think about the orcs prior to their deceitful corruption by Sargeras. If they had had a heads up would they have been on their guard? If the Draenei had been candid and upfront about what pursued them, they would have had allies probably, and certainly the native races would have been more on guard.


So they warn the orcs and they dont drink the demon blood, and in your hypothesis the Orcs wouldn't have been obliterated? If anything the Orcs drinking the blood spared them as a race from annihilation by your theory and they therefore owe their lives to the Dranei.

Likewise, Draenor was the only time ever that the BL had found the Dranei, if the Dranei didn't think they would be found they probably saw no reason to worry the others.

ALSo the Orcs willingly drank the demon blood, no one forced them, I dont hold much against them after that but it was still subalternated from a choice and a lust for power.
Edited by Sofa on 2/13/2013 2:23 AM PST
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90 Orc Warrior
7470
So they warn the orcs and they dont drink the demon blood, and in your hypothesis the Orcs wouldn't have been obliterated? If anything the Orcs drinking the blood spared them as a race from annihilation by your theory and they therefore owe their lives to the Dranei.

Likewise, Draenor was the only time ever that the BL had found the Dranei, if the Dranei didn't think they would be found they probably saw no reason to worry the others.

ALSo the Orcs willingly drank the demon blood, no one forced them, I dont hold much against them after that but it was still subalternated from a choice and a lust for power.


The references are general but the implications are clear. The Draenei fled to many planets throughout the cosmos. The BL sought them out where ever they went. All those planets and races were destroyed or corrupted by the BL.

Poor Typhoid Mary did not know that she trailed destruction in her wake. The Draenei did know, and warned no one. It is a magical-political equivalent to the intentional infection of another with the AIDS virus - a felony in many states.

The Draenei are not holy. They are sanctimonious. A big difference.
Edited by Stonzgrinda on 2/13/2013 8:33 AM PST
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90 Orc Warrior
7470
02/13/2013 01:28 AMPosted by Sofa
ALSo the Orcs willingly drank the demon blood, no one forced them, I dont hold much against them after that but it was still subalternated from a choice and a lust for power.


MOST of the Orcs drank the demon blood for the reasons you state, as did MOST of the Eredar for comparable reasons. Almost all of BOTH races succumbed to the corruption. Thus the Draenei/Eredar are analogs to the Frost Wolf/Orcs; neither participated in what they knew was a catastrophically bad decision by self interested leaders..

The difference being that the Frost Wolves stood and fought the corruption, and that fight leading eventually to Durotan's assassination. The son of Durotan however, had a hand in helping to throw the corruption off of his people's backs, and fighting the corruption to a standstill. Grom Hellscream turned the tide, at the ultimate cost to free his people

What did the Draenei do? Why, the Draenei ran away. And ran. And ran. And ran. And ran. If they had a functioning Exodar, they would be running still.
Edited by Stonzgrinda on 2/13/2013 9:46 AM PST
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You already sound strongly convinced of your own argument, Stonzgrinda.

Consider though, that the Burning Legion is already in the business of corrupting and obliterating every planet they come into contact with. You might even be able to argue that the Draenei ultimately saved other worlds by dragging out a chase (assuming that is less convenient than the regular pace at which they ruin worlds as a primary goal).

The lack of communication might be explained by the two races being so different. Orcs are short lived and their magic was shamanistic. Draenei are effectively immortal, and possess a mastery over the arcane and the holy Light. In their eyes, warning the orcs could have been akin to warning the ants in your backyard to beware lawn mowers... and to expect an internal corruption rather than an overt assault might not have been thought of, since Sargeras originally tempted an extremely advanced society.

You also might want to consider how the Army of the Light plays into this. They're buying time not just to save their own skin, but because the Naaru led them onto interdimensional ships during their time of need, so they might eventually be gathered into a combined force representing the Light to liberate the cosmos.
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What did the Draenei do? Why, the Draenei ran away. And ran. And ran. And ran. And ran. If they had a functioning Exodar, they would be running still.

Just going to put this out there, but the Exodar as of sometime after the Cataclysm is now functional.

However your point stands. A good chunk of the population want to leave, and nearly had their way if it weren't for Velen. Most of the Draenei believe that this world will fall once the legion lock on and really go for it (but it seems like they have already done that, twice, and both times got pushed back pretty soundly. If Archimond being killed wasn't a big hit, I don't know what is (admittedly, he is a demon, so he may be back. Never know with those guys)).

And we beat Kil'jaden. So that means this world has the two demon generals ruffed up good, numerous demon lords defeated, and countless demons. Azeroth right now seems to be the only world that has the power to fight the legion. But most of the space goats want to leave...

Virtuous indeed...
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90 Goblin Warlock
11295
The Draenei did know, and warned no one. It is a magical-political equivalent to the intentional infection of another with the AIDS virus - a felony in many states.

The Draenei are not holy. They are sanctimonious. A big difference.


Where is it said they warned no one? That's a big thing to tack on to your argument that I've never read. Changes the entire argument.

When we encountered Draenei they were ready to warn us all of the coming doom and to embrace the Light(savior).
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60 Blood Elf Warlock
3545
Draenei. I hear them being described incomparably virtuous, angelic and godlike, yada yada. But consider this - in their inter-planetary flight from the Burning Legion through the cosmos, they knew the Burning Legion was following them, and they knew the Burning Legion would destroy or corrupt each planet and each native race where the Draenei tried to hide. Despite this knowledge they went from planet to planet, over and over and warned no one at any of the places they fled to!

Think about the orcs prior to their deceitful corruption by Sargeras. If they had had a heads up would they have been on their guard? If the Draenei had been candid and upfront about what pursued them, they would have had allies probably, and certainly the native races would have been more on guard.

The "noble" Draenei could have spread warning through the cosmos. They could have informed and advised the ignorant and innocent worlds. They could have galvanized a prepared resistance to the Burning Legion. They did none of these things. They sat on this secret, took care of themselves, and bugged out every time the Burning Legion found them.


The problem is that the natural reaction the Draenei would have faced if they had done this is either 1) No one would believe them or 2) People would treat them as pariahs and try to force them to leave.

1) No one believes them: Many of the worlds the Draenei fled to were untouched by the Burning Legion before they arrived. These places would have known nothing of the demons that followed the Draenei. If someone came up to you and described something you knew nothing about... chances are you wouldn't believe such a thing existsted. Such was the case in our own world when scientists first discovered the platypus... a creature so unlike any known to exist that many didn't believe the scientists who discovered it until it was actually shown to them. Unfortunately in the case of the Burrning Legion, by the time someone sees these demons and realizes they "actually" exist... it is probably too late.

2) Treated as Pariahs: If the Draenei warned the worlds of the Burning Legion and were believed... how many of those people would blame the Draenei for bringing the Legion down upon them? When bad things happen... people look for someone to blame. If the Burning Legion comes to a world looking for the Draenei... people will blame the Draenei for bringing them... even though the Burning Legion was likely to arrive sooner or latter anyways. Many would even try to bargain with the Legion to give up the Draenei in an atempt to save themselves... believing that they will be spared if they do so. Of course the Legion will still destroy them. Worse would be those world that might try to kill the Draenei in the hope that such an act might spare their world from the Legion that follows them. It won't.

The truth of the matter is that Draenei probably did try to warn the planets of the Burning Legion durring their exodus... and recieved these kinds of reactions... disbelief or paranoia. After enough times of doing this... many may have thought it better to let these worlds discover the truth on their own or over time.

It is very likely that had the Draenei learned beforehand that the Legion had found them that they would have warned the Orcs what threat the Legion really was... something the Legion didn't want happening. They acted in secret, posing as the ancestors of the Orcs... not as poweful demons. By the time the Orcs began their attacks on the Draenei, their corruption was well underway... and I don't think the Draenei realized that the Legion was behind this until much later. Would it have made a difference if the Draenei told the Orcs up front about the Burning Legion? Maybe... maybe not. The demons used deception to seduce the Orcs at first... a deception that probably would have still worked even if the Orcs knew of the Legion.

Besides... do we really know that the Draenei didn't try to warn people of the Burning Legion?
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90 Night Elf Druid
8020
You're forgetting the biggest thing with Draenie! They are horrible pilots! you would think someone on the ship would have pointed out the window and been like "hey look a planet, maybe we should...I don't know......turn?"

As for the pandas....They are fat alcoholics?
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60 Blood Elf Warlock
3545
You're forgetting the biggest thing with Draenie! They are horrible pilots! you would think someone on the ship would have pointed out the window and been like "hey look a planet, maybe we should...I don't know......turn?"

As for the pandas....They are fat alcoholics?


Kind of hard not to crash a ship when the engines have been sabotaged no matter how good you may be... and besides, the Exodar doesn't fly through outer space (or whatever it is called here... the Dark Beyond?) like the Enterprise, it basically teleports to a new world (I have yet to find any windows on the Exodar too).
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90 Tauren Shaman
9275
To the OP - any character can have flaws. You could look at the Tauren and think 'oh, they're peaceful Earthmother-lovers' but that's not at all true with all Tauren.

Pandaren strive for balance as a whole. But that doesn't mean you can't have some out there that are a mess, or whatever else you can come up with.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
9565
Poor Typhoid Mary did not know that she trailed destruction in her wake. The Draenei did know, and warned no one. It is a magical-political equivalent to the intentional infection of another with the AIDS virus - a felony in many states.


If you can't pay the rent, do you bell the cat? The orcs of Draenor were in no shape to combat an active invasion by the Legion, which by the way never happened, before the orcs and Medivh brought them in. So you can't condemm the Draenei for warning of something that never took place.

It's also not the same situation. Mary had the choice of taking actions which would have isolated her infectious nature and never accepted the reasons she had to do so.

The Draenei were running for their lives in addition to their ideals, and can't be faulted for putting their own survival on the top of their priority list.
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