Dear Blizzard, a Shooting Star's suggestion?

90 Worgen Druid
13675
Dear Blizzard is there any chance moonkin could see something done about Shooting Stars procs being wasted during a finishing 0.5 casts, GCD, and travel time delay?

As of right now our Shooting Stars proc for Starsurge suffers greatly in 3 instances, all of which the player has no control over.

1: Both DoTs are applied to the target, DoT:1 ticks 1 time and triggers Shooting Stars while the players is finishing the last 0.4 seconds of their Wrath cast. DoT:2 ticks 1 time and triggers Shooting Stars and overrides DoT:1's Shooting Stars proc, Wrath finishes casting, continue to 2#;

2: The player casts instant Starsurge triggered from DoT:2's 1st tick, while Starsurge is traveling Dot:2 2nd tick hits and triggers Shooting Stars, Dot:1's 2nd tick overrides Dot:2's 2nd tick and reapplys Shooting Stars. Starsurge finishes its travel time, continue to #3;

3: Right before the player uses Dot:1's 2nd proc of Shooting Stars, Dot:2 ticks for the 3rd time, procing and over riding again. Player cast's Starsurge, using Dot:2's 3rd tick. Player continues normal Starfire, Wrath and 15 second Starsurge cooldown rotation, without anymore Shooting Star's proc for 15 second +.

End result: 3 wasted Shooting Stars procs, out of the control of the player. The game reacts to quickly for us to make full use of our spell and our special uqunie class "proc", as well as what is considered a "movement" dps option. The number of wasted Shooting Stars procs ranges from anywhere to 1-5 on average, so I used a middle ground number of 3.

What I just described is what happens on a regular basis to all Moonkin of different gear levels. What I also just described happens in under 8 seconds. Apply two DoTs, 2 GCDs = 2 seconds. Cast Wrath 1.8 seconds = 3.8 seconds. Cast Starsurge 1 GCD = 4.8 seconds. Wait on Starsurges travel time/GCD 1-2 = 5.8-6.8 seconds. Cast Starsurge again 1 GCD = 6.8-7.8 seconds.

While I understand the reasoning behind delaying the use of instant cast Starsurge through Shooting Star's procs in a PvP setting, there still has to be a better way of handling our proc's without making so many of them worthless on a regular basis in both PvE and PvP.

Blizzard, is there any chance Balance druids could see Shooting Star's having a stack? Like Molten Core and Soulfire? But unlike Soulfire, not let it's proc stack to 10, but instead stack to 3 or maybe 5? But keep the "travel time" delay, to help avoid "machine guning" Starsurge? This would give us a much great chance of not having so many "wasted" procs and possibly saves our procs for movement periods.

Currently our options for momvent dps is very tricky and harmful to our dps as a whole. If we use Lunar Shower we override our buffed DoTs by eclipse for a extremely weak hitting Instant + a weaker DoT that jsut keeps getting overwritten. Mushrooms require 3 GCD's and for the target to be mostly stationary. Shooting Star's is to random and its wasted procs give us no control over it for movement. Starfall is usually on CD or can't be used to due adds/cc/targets/raid mechanics absorbing (Think Lai Shi being bubbled and her Protector adds out) them being under 100% health (Some of it's issues this change in 5.2). Its alright to have lower dps during movement, but being barely able to do anything at all? It just seems like it could use some fine tuning.
Edited by Souxlya on 2/13/2013 4:50 AM PST
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90 Troll Druid
7405
My heart cracks a little each time I intend to cast a Starsurge after my current nuke, but it procs again JUST before I can do so.

While I do think what you have in mind would be a good qol fix, as well as a reasonable fix to our movement dps, overall I think being able to accumulate Starsurges would be disastrous for pvp balance, which is why Blizzard will most likely leave it the way it is, given how firmly they're steering clear of anything that might give a spec too much burst.

Also, it would add more micro-management into the spec, and this would be a problem for some. Personally, I think this would be fantastic - Should I use my Shooting Stars procs only until after Solar Eclipse ends so I hit lunar in 3 casts, or would it be best to do it the other way around and save them for use only in Eclipse? Should I save all Shooting Stars procs until the next Lunar when I'm popping Cds again? Let's dot up everything now, so I'll have a boatload of procs to unload on that particularly annoying add in this encounter. Oh, the boss will have a debuff in a couple of seconds. Guess I'd better get some procs up then!

Endless possibilities really, and it'd help inject some of that fun back into Balance, except this just wouldn't work for pvp unless Starsurge were nerfed to be not that good anyways. Plus it might be OP towards the end of the expansion when we have far higher crit.
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90 Troll Druid
14580
Don't touch my Starsurge.

If anything needs changing, it's the 1-in-flight rule.
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90 Worgen Druid
13675
02/13/2013 09:06 AMPosted by Hushkawnek
As for allowing to accumulate, I would think just putting them on like a 3-second timer or something, so things like this don't happen.


Might need a little clarification on what you mean exactly. That sounds like something similar to what we have now would happen, and make the point of Shooting Star's pointless?

So allow all 3 to accumulate, use 1 charge, wait 3 seconds, use 2nd charge? That seems like it would cause us more issues then losing procs now, at least during movement and eclipse cycles.

Don't touch my Starsurge.

If anything needs changing, it's the 1-in-flight rule.


Yes, leave Starsurge alone, but make some fine tuning changes to Shooting Stars.

1-in-flight rule seems unlikely to be changed due to PvP burst, any other suggestions along this threads idea of "stacks" or "charges", letting us make more use of our currently wasted Shooting Star's procs? Or wasted Shooting Star's procs in general?

While I do think what you have in mind would be a good qol fix, as well as a reasonable fix to our movement dps, overall I think being able to accumulate Starsurges would be disastrous for pvp balance, which is why Blizzard will most likely leave it the way it is, given how firmly they're steering clear of anything that might give a spec too much burst.

Also, it would add more micro-management into the spec, and this would be a problem for some.

Endless possibilities really, and it'd help inject some of that fun back into Balance, except this just wouldn't work for pvp unless Starsurge were nerfed to be not that good anyways. Plus it might be OP towards the end of the expansion when we have far higher crit.


Unfortunately for the moment I would be happy with a quick fix. This is something we have been dealing with for the entire life span of Stasurge and Shooting Stars, The greater part of 2 years, with no real solution on the horizon. We went through many Starsurge nerfs over these last few years, most of which either made the spell hit for less then Starfire and Wrath or had other harmful affects on our old style talents, nerfing % of damage based ones or spell coefficients. There must be a solution that is practical for Moonkin overall and PvP that doesn't require enormous overhaul.

Micro managing seems so very low for Balance druids compared to other classes like Demonology Warlocks.

While a very outstanding druid may do more then the average one, the difference between what they are both doing at the moment is very minimal. Push the bar to the left or the right, keep 2 dots up, use Starsurge on CD. Align talent and spec CDs, handle Starfall in a way that most benefits it and how many uses you can get. While many know this is a more simplified version of our rotation, it isn't that far off the "hard core" or "micro managing" version.

I don't think adding a charge or stacks to Shooting Star's would make it that much more complicated for the average player, in fact I think it would make it easier. It could add a better flow, or leeway for the micro managing players with number of Eclipse power and so on. With very little, if any, drawbacks to the average player.

I still believe there is an easier answer to handle our PvP and overall spec issues then nerfing Starsurge, rather then changing Shooting Star's. I hope, one that is not much harder then leaving the proc the way it currently is.

As for gearing and higher crit levels, this will happen no matter what this expansion, in both PvP and PvE. The real question is if it will be address sooner or later, and with nerfs or a better spell overhaul.
Edited by Souxlya on 2/13/2013 12:23 PM PST
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90 Troll Druid
14580
02/13/2013 12:22 PMPosted by Souxlya
Micro managing seems so very low for Balance druids compared to other classes like Demonology Warlocks.

You're not playing Moonkin correctly then. Because using a Patchwerk example is moot. Start adding movement and other mechanics. It's not hard per se, but we take a massive hit to our output for the rest of the encounter.
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90 Worgen Druid
13675
Micro managing seems so very low for Balance druids compared to other classes like Demonology Warlocks.

You're not playing Moonkin correctly then. Because using a Patchwerk example is moot. Start adding movement and other mechanics. It's not hard per se, but we take a massive hit to our output for the rest of the encounter.


Please read my full post.

Micro managing seems so very low for Balance druids compared to other classes like Demonology Warlocks.

While a very outstanding druid may do more then the average one, the difference between what they are both doing at the moment is very minimal. Push the bar to the left or the right, keep 2 dots up, use Starsurge on CD. Align talent and spec CDs, handle Starfall in a way that most benefits it and how many uses you can get. While many know this is a more simplified version of our rotation, it isn't that far off the "hard core" or "micro managing" version.

I didn't see the point in mapping out a "average player" and "outstanding player's" difference in rotation down to the finest detail. It would just end up being mostly pointless text in an already long response.
Edited by Souxlya on 2/13/2013 1:04 PM PST
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90 Worgen Druid
9355
Don't touch my Starsurge.

If anything needs changing, it's the 1-in-flight rule.


That. Everything else about it is fine.
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90 Worgen Druid
9355
02/13/2013 12:52 PMPosted by Souxlya

You're not playing Moonkin correctly then. Because using a Patchwerk example is moot. Start adding movement and other mechanics. It's not hard per se, but we take a massive hit to our output for the rest of the encounter.


Please read my full post.

Micro managing seems so very low for Balance druids compared to other classes like Demonology Warlocks.

While a very outstanding druid may do more then the average one, the difference between what they are both doing at the moment is very minimal. Push the bar to the left or the right, keep 2 dots up, use Starsurge on CD. Align talent and spec CDs, handle Starfall in a way that most benefits it and how many uses you can get. While many know this is a more simplified version of our rotation, it isn't that far off the "hard core" or "micro managing" version.

I didn't see the point in mapping out a "average player" and "outstanding player's" difference in rotation down to the finest detail. It would just end up being mostly pointless text in an already long response.


You clearly don't play balance.
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90 Worgen Druid
13675
You clearly aren't seeing my point and only focusing on the fact I haven't said the exact difference between an average player's rotation and a hard core player. I do play Balance, I played it main spec from Wrath to About 2 weeks ago. I've been in the middle of having to main spec heals for the moment. When I'm not in the middle of a raid, if those of you, that clearly can't focus on something other then an exact post of our rotation, I shall post it later.

If you have nothing useful to put towards a Shooting Star's change then save your posts about "your opinion" of my so called lack of knowledge. This is a thread to suggest helpful thigns for the class as a whole, not a "pick on you" thread.
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90 Worgen Druid
9355
SS isn't the problem, there is no fix that needs to happen there. That is the bit you are trying to ignore.
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90 Worgen Druid
13675
Ignoring it and not having the same opinion as you do about changing Shooting Star's are two different things.

I believe it needs a change, you do not. That is not me ignoring anything.

Would you care to go into why you don't believe Shooting Star's needs a change?
Edited by Souxlya on 2/13/2013 10:54 PM PST
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90 Worgen Druid
13675
On a larger scale there are other issues that are the real root of balances' problems, but because that will require a whole spec overhaul I am not suggesting it, I am only suggesting a change to 1 thing. The way in which Shooting Star's procs get wasted. That is all.
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90 Troll Druid
14580
02/13/2013 10:48 PMPosted by Souxlya
On a larger scale there are other issues that are the real root of balances' problems, but because that will require a whole spec overhaul I am not suggesting it, I am only suggesting a change to 1 thing. The way in which Shooting Star's procs get wasted. That is all.

That means you're not pressing Starsurge enough.

Changing the 1-in-flight rule will solve any issues with Starsurge because you will no longer "waste" a Shooting Stars proc. Anything else is wasted effort on Blzzard's part because Starsurge, as it is right now, is very good. The 1-in-flight rule change would immediately negate your "wasted" procs issue.
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90 Worgen Druid
16765
That means you're not pressing Starsurge enough.

Changing the 1-in-flight rule will solve any issues with Starsurge because you will no longer "waste" a Shooting Stars proc. Anything else is wasted effort on Blzzard's part because Starsurge, as it is right now, is very good. The 1-in-flight rule change would immediately negate your "wasted" procs issue.


Mine occasionally get wasted when two proc during a starfire cast. There's also those irritating times when they proc and it takes a few seconds for the game to realize that it's not supposed to still be on cd and won't let me use it until then.

But that doesn't happen too often, mostly on fights where I get to keep up multiples of my DoTs fairly consistently.
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90 Worgen Druid
9570
02/14/2013 09:09 AMPosted by Cyous
Changing the 1-in-flight rule will solve any issues with Starsurge because you will no longer "waste" a Shooting Stars proc. Anything else is wasted effort on Blzzard's part because Starsurge, as it is right now, is very good. The 1-in-flight rule change would immediately negate your "wasted" procs issue.


Cyous - you are conveniently forgetting the case of when you are one cast away from exiting Solar or Lunar and you are multi-dotting a bunch of adds (like Mel'jarak or in 5.2 maybe Horridon?) and you get a SS proc. Then comes the dilemma - waste the SS proc by continuing to multi-dot all of the adds before using it...or use it immediately and continuing dotting the rest of the adds with non-eclipsed dots...oh the horror!

I wish they would find a way to fix that :)

-PP
Edited by Pippilongear on 2/14/2013 11:28 AM PST
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90 Troll Druid
14580
02/14/2013 11:26 AMPosted by Pippilongear
I wish they would find a way to fix that :)

You would just continue to Lunar and Multi-DOT again.

Nothing hard about it.
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90 Troll Druid
15285
I can see the inflight rule being an issue for pvp, and if we get a fight with exceptional size boss hit boxes again (like Rag) it will be more noticeable then it is now.
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90 Troll Druid
14580
02/14/2013 02:50 PMPosted by Ishrn
I can see the inflight rule being an issue for pvp, and if we get a fight with exceptional size boss hit boxes again (like Rag) it will be more noticeable then it is now.

It means my next Starsurge will hit you in 1sec rather than 0.8sec; It's silly to keep that restriction.
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90 Worgen Druid
13675
On a larger scale there are other issues that are the real root of balances' problems, but because that will require a whole spec overhaul I am not suggesting it, I am only suggesting a change to 1 thing. The way in which Shooting Star's procs get wasted. That is all.

That means you're not pressing Starsurge enough.

Changing the 1-in-flight rule will solve any issues with Starsurge because you will no longer "waste" a Shooting Stars proc. Anything else is wasted effort on Blzzard's part because Starsurge, as it is right now, is very good. The 1-in-flight rule change would immediately negate your "wasted" procs issue.


As a side note, I am also not referring to any multi-target encounters, multi target would be fine to miss some procs due to how many Dot ticks are going out. With so many DoTs ticking you are bound to have wasted procs, that is fine, you are getting extra dps from so many Dots rolling.

My point is that you cannot press Starsurge fast enough, because the game does not give you enough time to react, in certain situations.

The 1-in-flight rule would not help all of the current wasted procs that I am talking about. The problem is DoT ticks overlapping each other and on occasion constantly re triggering Shooting Star's in a 0.2-.04 second area, you simply just don't have time to use your first proc within that window, if you are on GCD from any other spell.

If you don't have enough time to even use your first proc the 1-in-flight rule hasn't come into play yet, because you haven't had time to use your spell anyway, therefore not triggering 1-in-flight rule. We can also guess with about 90% accuracy that they will not change the 1-in-flight rule due to PvP and machine gunning burst. That is why I am suggesting this other option. Allow us to have Shooting Star's have stacks, so when you are GCD capped and Shooting Star's triggers 2-4 times in milliseconds you don't lose 2-4 instant Starsurges because of horrible luck, personal lag and server lag.

The way Molten Core work is if it procs you have 1 use of Soulfire, if it procs a second time 0.1 after the first you can now cast 2 Soulfires. This can continue to reoccur up to 10 stacks of Soulfire.

This is what I want for Balance druids. Just the ability to have the chance to use those wasted Shooting Star's proc, but have the amount of charges only go up to 3, not 10 like Warlocks.

What this would mean is not only would be not lose as many Starsurge procs, but we would also not lose as many of them to the 1-in-flight-rule.

With my suggestion think of it like this. Shooting Star's double procs while you on GCD, you now have 2 stacks of Shooting Star's for 12 seconds. Once you are not GCD capped you use your 1st stack and trigger the 1-in-flight-rule. You now have 1 stack left of Shooting Star's, while your Starsurge is in flight your dots trigger Shooting Star's again, you now have 2 stacks again. This would give us the full 3 instant Starsurge's we should have, instead of what happens now where we only would get 2.

Surely with your gear Cyous you see Shooting Star's retriggering over itself in those 0.2-0.4 second windows at least 1 time during 1 full eclipse cycle, making them wasted? I see that happening to myself almost every 1 1/2 eclipse cycle with less gear.

Please remember, I am suggesting this because I do not believe we will ever have 1-in-flight rule taken away. So when you make comments about this please keep that in mind.

Critique my suggestion based on 1-in-flight rule not on the table to be changed.


Side note: The other reason I want this is because I think in later tiers of this expansion we will run into this re triggering over Shooting Star's issue more and more. Meaning that in the last few tiers, we will be criting more often, but still only being able to use the same amount of Starusrge's as we currently get to use in tier 1 of the expansion. Meaning, instead of overlaping Shooting Star's procs 1-2 times, in 1 full eclipse cycle, later tiers it would retrigger 4-6 times over 1/2 of eclipse -1 full eclipse cycle.
Edited by Souxlya on 2/14/2013 3:43 PM PST
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