New 5.2 Changes (Feb 13th)

90 Blood Elf Paladin
18455
Another set of changes:

Master Trainers in Northrend, Cataclysm, and Courageous Yon will no longer field pets with higher than intended stats.
Ghostly Bite's damage has been reduced by 20%.
Ghostly Skull: Ghostly Bite and Siphon Life have swapped ability positions.

The following changes have been reverted:

Ghostly Bite now has a cooldown of 7 rounds (was 3 rounds).
Spectral Strike now has a cooldown of 4 rounds (was 3 rounds).
Light now has a cooldown of 4 rounds (was 3 rounds).

Looks good all around, imo, though I'm not sure Spectral Strike needed unnerfed. Ghostly Skull change is finally the right change; no pet needs two massive nukes at once, and it also opens up his other abilities to see competitive play (Unholy Ascension sounds fun).
Edited by Simca on 2/13/2013 5:37 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
BnB
14295
These changes seem much better. Also nice eye catching the notes on the euro boards took me a sec to find them.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18455
02/13/2013 06:02 AMPosted by Hearus
These changes seem much better. Also nice eye catching the notes on the euro boards took me a sec to find them.


Yep, http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/blog/6952156 for some reason the US boards didn't get the updates last night.
Edited by Simca on 2/13/2013 6:32 AM PST
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90 Tauren Warrior
12105
So... what are the stats on Yon and Payne and Obalis' pets supposed to be?

Is it all of their pets or just a few? Yon has always been my nemesis so this is a welcome change (although lately FFF has made him a joke like everyone else).
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85 Worgen Rogue
16330
So... what are the stats on Yon and Payne and Obalis' pets supposed to be?

Is it all of their pets or just a few? Yon has always been my nemesis so this is a welcome change (although lately FFF has made him a joke like everyone else).


I bet it's Yon's bunny. That thing hits like a truck.
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90 Human Death Knight
0
New Formula for Ghostly Bite

40 + (2 x ATK)

H/P Hawks/Skulls with 305 ATK will be hitting for 650, just as much as spectral strike but with 3 more round CD and a 1 round stun.

Small nerf to triple undead (assuming your only running a hawk with biggles and crab) but it does rightfully put Darkness with double skull in its place. They were simply able to dump too much damage.

So now that they've taken Conflag, Darkness, and (to an extent) Undead down a few pegs, this is just going to bring to spotlight a few more problem pets.

Oozes. Once you have corrosion and acidic goo rolling, they simply do too much damage. There are not many things that an ooze doesn't 1v1, and absorb simply puts their sustain over the top. There's a reason Consume has a 1 round CD and has a FULL 1x ATK ratio with 100% healing. Absorb, even with its .5 ATK ratio, heals oozes for about as much if not more than your average Consume. Triple Ooze will be the new cheese this next patch, if it wasn't for something much more worse.......

and that thing is Double shielding team. Even with the "fix" to shields, I feel that this comp will simply be too strong post patch, especially with all the damage nerfs. Anubsith, Magical Crawdad, and Emerald Proto-Whelp. This will basically shut down every comp including Triple Ooze. You simply can't do enough damage past their shields, and these pets ridiculously compliment each other. Crawdad soaks up undead damage that would threaten Anubsith, and Emerald Proto Whelp soaks up flying damage that would threaten the Crawdad. Honestly, I'm not sure how they can fix that since shielding by itself is "fine", but when you toss in sandstorm, and shield pets who have self healing, things get out of whack far too quickly. As for the mirror match.........its going to be one of the worst ones ever, as well as the fact that its gonna be a strong if not #1 comp.

Anyways, thats my thoughts and input on this. Their heading in the right direction with these nerfs, but if shielding, especially double shielding, is not addressed, as well as the fact that corrosion was not a "bug", things are gonna get ridiculously out of hand......
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90 Undead Rogue
4535
Double shielding teams aren't a problem. They do really really well vs dot based teams, but completely fall apart vs teams that have heavy hitters, mech, beast, or darkness based.

I've ran that kind of team for a while, they have many holes in their fight and rotation. A lot of reliance on anubisath being able to tank, crawdad is too weak often to do much more than swap in for heals (if possible even).
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90 Human Death Knight
0
/facepalm

What heavy hitters exist post patch? FFF, Ghostly Bite, Conflag, Darkness, all severely nerfed.

Being able to soak anywhere from 140~160 per hit post patch, as well as nullifying weather and soaking each other weaknesses, will put it over the top.

I know in live it sucks (but is still incredibly annoying to deal with). I am talking about post patch, not now.
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90 Undead Rogue
4535
That's only because you don't have enough experience running that team Surrender. You just recently started, I ran that team for a long time now, now more occasionally than standard.

Most fights I lost with that team were not to FFF (although FFF fights really sucked for me when they happened). There are really great and simple counters, darkness being one of them since you only need it to change sandstorm to nullify both anub and crawdad (even after the patch).

Yes next patch you won't be able easily steamroll everyone with FFFx3 anymore, but double shield has weaknesses and very many of them. And by now I know most of them very very well.
Edited by Kenpo on 2/13/2013 4:49 PM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
0
That's only because you don't have enough experience running that team Surrender. You just recently started, I ran that team for a long time now, now more occasionally than standard.

Most fights I lost with that team were not to FFF (although FFF fights really sucked for me when they happened). There are really great and simple counters, darkness being one of them since you only need it to change sandstorm to nullify both anub and crawdad (even after the patch).

Yes next patch you won't be able easily steamroll everyone with FFFx3 anymore, but double shield has weaknesses and very many of them. And by now I know most of them very very well.


Then you also realize that Darkness no longer has ridiculous burst. You didn't mention Emerald Proto-Whelp at all, that alone pretty much shuts down darkness. What are they going to do with their crow other than die? If they don't open with crow, well, their not getting any huge benefits. If they open with cat instead, Anub can just switch the weather on them after a Prowl + Call Darkness, and the cat is more than likely not going to be able to pull that off again.

Skulls can't spectral AND ghostly bite next patch, and either way, Crawdad soaks skulls damage ridiculously well.

I've toyed around with the comp and seen the damage reductions (its pretty dumb how much damage anub even soaks from a ghostly bite, and with a roughly 162 damage nerf its just gonna be worse).

So again, what heavy hitters exist in 5.2? Darkness is a shadow of itself without Skulls being able to double burst. What you know now about double shields weakness is irrelevant next patch as pretty much ALL of its weaknesses have been nerfed.

Also, to judge it based on this current patches Darkness is just silly. Darkness loses a LOT of its appeal next patch.......

  • 5 round weather vs current 9 round
  • No longer able to chain spectral strike into ghostly bite, as well as a 1 round nerf to Spectral Strike.
  • Nerf to prowl, meaning that if you missed your Call Darkness you cannot backrow the cat and wait for the CD to immediately cast a prowl buffed Call Darkness on switch in.
  • Can no longer chain stun (Surge of Light into a Fury of 1000 Fists into Surge of Light etc.)
  • Reflection nerf.
  • Edited by Surrender on 2/13/2013 5:47 PM PST
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    90 Human Death Knight
    0
    Anyways, if I'm wrong like some people are saying thats great. But the fix to shields is actually a buff in some situations or even a null point.

    Anyways, back to the point, here are my suggestions to fix stacking shields and oozes.

    Do not allow buffs and debuffs of the same type to stack. Have the higher buff override the weaker buff. For example........

    Sandstorm (74) + Shell shield (60) = 74
    Sandstorm (74) + Emerald Presence (90) = 90

    So, don't allow flat value + flat value to stack, or for % value + % value to stack. Flat + % value stacking is ok, as it doesn't break things as badly as double stacking Flat values does. Weakness and Resistance would obviously ignore this.

    As for the oozes, simply change it to match the CURRENT description. Getting an added DoT component pushes things too far. Every other move that adds + Flat damage is just simply that, flat damage. Upfront damage + DoT + Flat damage modifier all in 1 skill is putting them over the top right now. It would also allow for a choice between Corrosion or Creeping Ooze instead of what is the ridiculously obvious choice right now.
    Edited by Surrender on 2/13/2013 6:11 PM PST
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    90 Tauren Druid
    9105
    Sandstorm (74) + Shell shield (60) = 74
    Sandstorm (74) + Emerald Presence (90) = 90


    That seems like a good solution if one is necessary.

    Sandstorm + shield + recovery on Anub means a basic attack does 1/4 of normal dmg. This solution would nerf the combo without needing to nerf the individual abilities or pets.
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    90 Blood Elf Priest
    12445
    As much as I love the double-shield combo, it just makes DoT teams far too useless.
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    90 Human Death Knight
    0
    02/13/2013 07:16 PMPosted by Destian
    As much as I love the double-shield combo, it just makes DoT teams far too useless.


    With all the damage nerfs, its gonna make a LOT of things useless. Pets capable of double shielding + healing was never a good idea to begin with, and with burst damage across the board being nerfed its gonna be very VERY bad if these things are not addressed.
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    86 Draenei Shaman
    8635
    /facepalm

    What heavy hitters exist post patch? FFF, Ghostly Bite, Conflag, Darkness, all severely nerfed.


    There were more heavy hitters than that.

    Spectral Tiger Cub isn't nerfed, although not many have it in comparison to other pets. The damage component of Feline Familiar's Prowl/Call Darkness also still hits really hard.

    There have been several other teams cropping up from time to time, such as Pig + Demolish. That one is fun to use as well even though the pig is usually wasted space.

    My personal favorite for big nuke is Nether Faerie Dragon or Mini Mindslayer with Life Exchange. Use it at the right time against a Crawdad and you heal up 75% while dealing ~900 damage in one turn! The Mindslayer even has burst abilities to help take out the other pet faster. Works better in Arcane Winds of course, but even without it it takes care of thems crabs!
    Edited by Mesartham on 2/13/2013 10:31 PM PST
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    02/13/2013 05:09 PMPosted by Surrender
    So again, what heavy hitters exist in 5.2?


    A lot of the delayed burst abilities that Reflection wrecked should become useable again -- Whirlpool, Geyser, etc. Your double shield team has to give up all its avoidance for the shields/heals, so they're forced to eat this damage, and the ones with stuns attached (Elementium Bolt, Ice Tomb) will also prevent or delay heals from landing.

    02/13/2013 05:09 PMPosted by Surrender
    You didn't mention Emerald Proto-Whelp at all, that alone pretty much shuts down darkness. What are they going to do with their crow other than die?


    You don't have to open with Crow though. If the metagame shifts toward tanky teams, then maybe Scourged Whelpling or Lil' Deathwing or somebody else would offer more in that slot.

    With that said though, I think it's possible you're right about shields. Ironically, burst damage is the most effective against shields, since shields subtract damage from each hit. If burst damage has a hard time beating a shield team, then multi-hit attacks will have no hope -- Flurry/Blitz, DoTs, Lightning Storm, and AoE will all get shut down by a single comp. But at the same time, I'd like to see tank teams be given a chance -- it'd be nice if multiple archetypes could be competitive, and not just different flavors of burst comps like now.
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    90 Human Death Knight
    0
    There were more heavy hitters than that.

    Spectral Tiger Cub isn't nerfed, although not many have it in comparison to other pets. The damage component of Feline Familiar's Prowl/Call Darkness also still hits really hard.

    There have been several other teams cropping up from time to time, such as Pig + Demolish. That one is fun to use as well even though the pig is usually wasted space.

    My personal favorite for big nuke is Nether Faerie Dragon or Mini Mindslayer with Life Exchange. Use it at the right time against a Crawdad and you heal up 75% while dealing ~900 damage in one turn! The Mindslayer even has burst abilities to help take out the other pet faster. Works better in Arcane Winds of course, but even without it it takes care of thems crabs!


    Spectral Tiger Cub shouldn't be getting its burst off against this comp. Theres no reason that Anub can't wait out Darkness to unleash Sandstorm. Darkness as a whole got a LOT of nerfs so it won't be seeing as much play probably, not that this comp doesn't handle it very well. Also, listing a pet like this isn't very valid when its not in the hands of most PvP'ers who don't want to farm stupid amounts of gold or fork out a ton of cash. Honestly, pets like that shouldn't exist but oh well.

    Far as Nether Fairie I see that once in a blue moon because its so gimmicky, and I've personally never seen Mindslayer ran. Anubsith would punch the Fairie to death very quickly anyways and you could always sub dragon breathe on the emerald whelp over onyx bite. Not a reliable counter at all.

    As for wiggles, if he honestly did become a problem with this team (not that I think he would) you could start maining a Crystal Spider in the 3rd slot and laugh at any attempt to use the pig. He'll never get a shot at all to unleash his combo.

    A lot of the delayed burst abilities that Reflection wrecked should become useable again -- Whirlpool, Geyser, etc. Your double shield team has to give up all its avoidance for the shields/heals, so they're forced to eat this damage, and the ones with stuns attached (Elementium Bolt, Ice Tomb) will also prevent or delay heals from landing.


    All of those got damage nerfs as well, except for Whirlpool. Also, stuns do not interrupt Emerald Dream or Wish.

    You don't have to open with Crow though. If the metagame shifts toward tanky teams, then maybe Scourged Whelpling or Lil' Deathwing or somebody else would offer more in that slot.

    With that said though, I think it's possible you're right about shields. Ironically, burst damage is the most effective against shields, since shields subtract damage from each hit. If burst damage has a hard time beating a shield team, then multi-hit attacks will have no hope -- Flurry/Blitz, DoTs, Lightning Storm, and AoE will all get shut down by a single comp. But at the same time, I'd like to see tank teams be given a chance -- it'd be nice if multiple archetypes could be competitive, and not just different flavors of burst comps like now.


    Lil' Deathwing is a CE pet, and Anubsith would wreck it anyways. You could run the Scourged Whelping, but what is he going to do? Plagued Blood and Tail Sweep are going to basically do nothing against Sandstorm + Shield. Multi Hit teams already have no hope against Double Shield teams, and the current burst nerfs are evermore favoring them.

    Double shield + Healing is more than likely going to be broken next patch. It was a bad idea and the only reason it wasn't valid now was because burst was WAY up there. Now that its been toned down a lot (as well as the fact that there are a solid 2 different types of shield/healers to go along with anubsith) double shielding is gonna create some issues.
    Edited by Surrender on 2/14/2013 1:12 AM PST
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    90 Blood Elf Priest
    12445
    02/13/2013 10:00 PMPosted by Surrender
    With all the damage nerfs, its gonna make a LOT of things useless. Pets capable of double shielding + healing was never a good idea to begin with, and with burst damage across the board being nerfed its gonna be very VERY bad if these things are not addressed.


    Bliz needs to find a balance between pets dealing capable damage and pets being able to mitigate damage.

    As it stands, tanky pets are going to absolutely reign supreme because it takes impossibly long to kill them.
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    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    18455
    So... what are the stats on Yon and Payne and Obalis' pets supposed to be?

    Is it all of their pets or just a few? Yon has always been my nemesis so this is a welcome change (although lately FFF has made him a joke like everyone else).


    The Northrend and Cataclysm tamers had more stats than intended but it was intentional - they were supposed to serve as a "half-tier" upgrade. Payne had pets that were "Rare and a half" and Obalis had pets that were "Epic and a half".

    However, Courageous Yon was flat out bugged - his first two pets (the Chicken and Rabbit) had stupidly high stats. There was nothing "half a tier" about it... they were better than Legendaries.
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    90 Blood Elf Priest
    12445
    02/14/2013 09:12 AMPosted by Simca
    However, Courageous Yon was flat out bugged - his first two pets (the Chicken and Rabbit) had stupidly high stats. There was nothing "half a tier" about it... they were better than Legendaries.


    And the Anubisath ironically still ate them for lunch. :\
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