Blizzard killing Disc Priest

90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/15/2013 01:26 AMPosted by Rizzea
It was OP and needed nerfing. I can heal block someone of equal gear and triple them on the meters, in appropriate content.


You really should read past the first page. :-P
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90 Troll Druid
0
So basically the divine aegis change is a nerf to disc's crit effectiveness (compared to live) ?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/15/2013 01:41 AMPosted by Lovelykitty
So basically the divine aegis change is a nerf to disc's crit effectiveness (compared to live) ?


Not exactly.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
02/15/2013 12:20 AMPosted by Amabella
I don't see why they would come up with a new SS formula when their stated goal was to make SS heals the same size as non-SS heals.


If the way crit and DA work for us is getting changed, then it's fair to assume that the SS formulua is going to follow suit. The one I posted takes those changes into account.
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90 Pandaren Monk
0
02/14/2013 11:57 PMPosted by Urteil
That's all common knowledge, but you can't argue that by nature absorb healing isn't more powerful. When it comes to keeping people alive, it is king.


I'm not sure what you're talking about or why you've gone in that direction. What did that have to do with the text you quoted, which had nothing to do with shields?

Proactively HoTing will often go to waste.


I'm not sure why that matters relative what you quoted of me except very tangentially.

Sorry, I spoke to my own encounter experience. I'm not sure which encounters you have seen, but there are rarely fights where even the most hastily placed (though not entirely idiotic) absorb will not be fully consumed once you reach heroic level fights.


Your qualification proves my point. What is the difference between the thought process of placing a shield on someone you know will take damage vs. healing someone you see has taken damage that "reduces the need for thoughtfully choosing where to place your heal"? Is there a case of people randomly chucking PW:S all over the place or hitting random targets with Life Cocoon? You still have to care about the GCD you're spending on the targets (and the cooldown on LC), whether they're a priority for it, etc. For AoE shields on PTR, they're going to be no less thoughtful than casting Wild Growth or Renewing Mist. Similarly on live.

It does, though.


Did you not read past the first comma, where I said, "unless they have inappropriate costs or other restrictions?" Remember, my original post, which you responded to, was in the context of healing meters, and I mentioned snipping, among other things.

Needless to say, a heal is not inherently better than another when both do an equivalent job. When they don't, they're not, but that's a truism for any two heals.

For the record, initially PW:S used to be wildly mana inefficient AND cause Weakened Soul. It was meant solely for emergencies because absorbs are simply that strong.


Why was that being put on the record? It also used to be spammable, single button spec spell, as did Renew/Circle of Healing, Rejuvenation, Chain "brain" Heal, and Flash of Light.

This we can agree on


That's good because I'm not really sure why you made an entire post about shields like you have some sort of vendetta against them when I was talking about the ability for healing meters to define balance and the way in which heal suppression does not objectively make one healer better than another if another healer can perform just as well when the suppressor class isn't there (which some can't, currently; I've already stated Disc is currently OP).

At any rate, as for balance, given what you think is true about shields, you should think they're absolutely the easiest things to balance. You just plop them on any target, they always heal for the full amount, no matter what, in a current heroic environment, in exactly the way you'd expect them to. There's no ifs, ands, or buts, and they're perfectly predictable. In that case, they're sort of the baseline around which everyone else would be balanced. That would make HoTs and long casting time heals hardest to balance because their effects are harder to predict.
Edited by Folsom on 2/15/2013 2:32 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/15/2013 02:28 AMPosted by Folsom
Why was that being put on the record? It also used to be spammable, single button spec spell, as did Renew/Circle of Healing, Rejuvenation, Chain "brain" Heal, and Flash of Light.


Not sure if you've noticed, but Chain Heal, Rejuv, and Renew are all still spammable. Not entirely sure why you would include Renew with Circle of Healing, as if somehow Renew was this grossly overpowered thing. Do you even know what Renew is and does? o_O

Sorry, but when I'm trying to follow your posts and reasoning, statements like this just ruin it for me. It's like you don't even heal.
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63 Dwarf Priest
0
I'm not sure what you're talking about or why you've gone in that direction. What did that have to do with the text you quoted, which had nothing to do with shields?

I didn't want to quote the entire thing, these have a character limit. You were using the "it's a perception problem" angle to argue that there's nothing fundamentally stronger about absorbs in the "greater healing scheme", so it was relevant.

I'm not sure why that matters relative what you quoted of me except very tangentially.

You compared HoTs to shields in terms of proactive healing, as though they were equal.

Your qualification proves my point. What is the difference between the thought process of placing a shield on someone you know will take damage vs. healing someone you see has taken damage that "reduces the need for thoughtfully choosing where to place your heal"? Is there a case of people randomly chucking PW:S all over the place or hitting random targets with Life Cocoon? You still have to care about the GCD you're spending on the targets (and the cooldown on LC), whether they're a priority for it, etc. For AoE shields on PTR, they're going to be no less thoughtful than casting Wild Growth or Renewing Mist. Similarly on live.

The point was that the damage is such in heroics that there will rarely be a wasted shield, as long as there is any sort of raid damage. It will not overheal or be wasted. Life Coccoon is a different animal, it's a tank cooldown. You can just pop Spirit Shell and spam PoH and it WILL be effective. The PTR change makes it more thoughtful because it reduces the amount of absorbs in Disc's kit overall. Wild Growth and Renewing Mists are smart heals, so that kinda implies less thought. They're also wildly different spells, being HoTs as opposed to... absorbs, which was my whole point with the original post. Absorbs are mechanically superior to other heals.

Did you not read past the first comma, where I said, "unless they have inappropriate costs or other restrictions?" Remember, my original post, which you responded to, was in the context of healing meters, and I mentioned snipping, among other things.

Needless to say, a heal is not inherently better than another when both do an equivalent job. When they don't, they're not, but that's a truism for any two heals.

I read your whole post, trust me. It was a bit confusing because you were arguing that absorbs AREN'T inherently problematic if they're balanced through cost, availability, and resource, but I guess you acknowledged that currently (on live) they aren't? So we were agreeing all along...?

I already explained why, in my opinion, an absorb is stronger than any other sort of heal, unless you can discuss that with something more than "needless to say", then I feel you don't have much of a case there.

Why was that being put on the record? It also used to be spammable, single button spec spell, as did Renew/Circle of Healing, Rejuvenation, Chain "brain" Heal, and Flash of Light.

You brought up why you thought Weakened Soul was introduced, I was just pointing out that clearly why a mechanic was introduced isn't necessarily indicative of its design intent currently. Sorry if that was unclear.

That's good because I'm not really sure why you made an entire post about shields like you have some sort of vendetta against them when I was talking...
At any rate, as for balance, given what you think is true about shields, you should think they're absolutely the easiest things to balance... ...That would make HoTs and long casting time heals hardest to balance because their effects are harder to predict.


My whole post was about the difficulty of balancing absorbs with other heals, not necessarily calling for them to be torn down. You responded with a solid point about the nature of healing meters and how they affect perceptions, which I agreed with, but then branched out into claiming that absorbs were no more effective than another heal, which I found untrue, so I responded. Shields provide more than simply sniping and "heal suppression".
Balance should be done around the average, not outliers. Remember, "cheap, weak heal", "slow, powerful heal", "fast expensive heal"? Restoring health is the very basis of healing in WoW. Absorbs are the outlier in this situation, you can't really balance around them. HoTs and longer casting times are indeed harder to balance if you look at the insane efficiency and effectiveness of absorbs, but that doesn't mean you balance them around absorbs when they're the base of the whole model.
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100 Tauren Druid
10865
Wow this thread blew up! Can i just say OP is dumb as !@#$? i know i'm not a very nice person oh well. Anyone defending disc and or trying to say disc is harder to play [15 sec till x big ability better cast spirit shell+PoH everyone] is dumb as %^-*. I pulled 15 seconds out of my !@#$ btw i can't wait till someone corrects me {tiriel cough tiriel}.

I'm aware there is more too disc than that, but i was generalizing as some have come to say about other healing classes.
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90 Pandaren Monk
0
02/15/2013 02:44 AMPosted by Tiriél
Not sure if you've noticed, but Chain Heal, Rejuv, and Renew are all still spammable. Not entirely sure why you would include Renew with Circle of Healing, as if somehow Renew was this grossly overpowered thing. Do you even know what Renew is and does? o_O


I was responding to a point that PW:S *used to be* wildly expensive and cause weakened soul and was specifically an emergency heal, at an unspecified time as if that defined it entirely or had any relevance to what it's supposed to be now. Back in Wrath, CoH and Renew used to be spammable, and Holy Priests tended to use hardly anything else (them less than other classes, but for the most part, that's about it). Just a round about way to point out that "none of that remains relevant at all; healing is no longer like that."

The only reason I brought up Weakened Soul was to point out that its restriction was an effort to make it more like a HoT in terms of efficacy in healing a single player, and that's likely why it still exists. It's to create parity between other spells.

As an aside, I find it annoying because it creates a synergy problem between two disc priests. You can double/triple/etc. HoT someone, but not PW:S, and I don't find it to be the best mechanic, especially in a situation where PW:S is intended to be used more often. It's a minor quibble, however.

Sorry, but when I'm trying to follow your posts and reasoning, statements like this just ruin it for me. It's like you don't even heal.


/eyeroll
Edited by Folsom on 2/15/2013 5:17 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
0
02/15/2013 02:48 AMPosted by Urteil
You were using the "it's a perception problem" angle to argue that there's nothing fundamentally stronger about absorbs


No, I wasn't. I was arguing about their perceived strengths vs. actual strengths and how that related to balance and healing meters.

02/15/2013 02:48 AMPosted by Urteil
You compared HoTs to shields in terms of proactive healing, as though they were equal.


No, I didn't. I said, "Proactive healing (HoTing, Shielding) is only a benefit over reactive healing in situations where reactive healing wouldn't be fast enough to keep someone alive," as in, if two spells can be used to keep someone alive and they are equally successful at doing so with similar efficiency, despite having different mechanics, the individual power of the spells is irrelevant regardless of what a healing meter shows. Also, I said, "this benefit will always be smaller than it appears, as a rule."

Nothing there said "HoTs of a certain raw healing power are exactly as effective as absorbs." :) The point there was that shields will look stronger even if the spells are designed to be equivalent or the HoT is stronger (HoT is cheaper, does more healing) because even the fattest of HoT won't be taken first if the shield covers the damage.

And all that was in support of meters not being an effective measure of healing prowess. A druid with godly powered million point Rejuv ticks would still look like a chump if a shield prevented all or most of an attack's damage despite the druid being massively more powerful (in that case).

So we were agreeing all along...?


but then branched out into claiming that absorbs were no more effective than another heal,


I think you read more into my posts than was there, unfortunately. I was saying that it is irrelevant with regard to balance if one heal is perceived as stronger than another if they both do the same job adequately with similar efficiency. That's why I said, "Right, but that doesn't make an absorb inherently stronger than a regular heal or even a HoT, unless they have inappropriate costs or other restrictions."

My original statement was, "The balance problem, I think, actually comes from the slow big heals and HoTs, especially in environments where damage is being applied quickly and in large chunks." That means I think absorbs are straight forward and easily balanced. It's the others that aren't, not that absorbs are equally strong to anything in particular.

I'm hope that's been cleared up.

With regard to the one statement you made:

The point was that the damage is such in heroics that there will rarely be a wasted shield, as long as there is any sort of raid damage.


I thought your point was: "Add in the benefit of being the only type of "heal" that can be effective on a full-health target (which reduces the need for thoughtfully choosing where to place your heal)"

I'm still trying to figure out why you think any given shield requires less thought than any particular spell of the same type (single target vs AoE) as to where to place it. PW:S is a single target heal that you must target on appropriate targets using your valuable GCDs in a heroic raid. You place it on priority targets, no? In what way is any other single target heal "more thoughtful?" The only difference to me appears to be in the timing. With PoH as it is now, as an AoE, how is it any less thoughtful to cast than CoH, Wild Growth, Chain Heal, Healing Rain or any other AoE spell? With those, either click the button and away goes the spell, and with PoH, you target someone in range in a party and click the spell given either AoE damage or upcoming AoE damage. It's currently more effective, but not more thoughtful, if only because there's barely any thought involved in any of them. :)
Edited by Folsom on 2/15/2013 3:56 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13730
02/15/2013 01:41 AMPosted by Lovelykitty
So basically the divine aegis change is a nerf to disc's crit effectiveness (compared to live) ?

More-or-less, but it's not a nerf overall.

If X is the value of a heal before secondary stat effects, the current value of a crit is:

Heal: 2 * X
Shield: (1 + 0.025 * Mastery) * X
Total: (3 + 0.025 * Mastery) * X

The new value of a crit is:

Heal: (1 + 0.008 * Mastery) * X
Shield: (1 + 0.016 * Mastery)(1 + 0.008 * Mastery) * X
Total: (2 + 0.032 * Mastery + 0.000128 * Mastery ^ 2) * X

So if you have, say, 12 Mastery points (equates to 30% Mastery), the current value of a crit is 3.3 * X. The new value is 2.402 * X. So that's clearly a significant nerf to crit.

However, it's not a significant nerf overall. If you have, say, 15% Crit raidbuffed, then your average heal under the current system is:
0.85 * X + 0.15 * 3.3 * X = 1.345 * X

Your average heal under the new system is:
0.85 * 1.096 * X + 0.15 * 2.402 * X = 1.292 * X

So it's on the order of a 3-5% nerf to overall healing from normal healing spells. That still doesn't look great, but look at the impact on PWS.

Let X be the value of PWS before secondary stats.

Current value of PWS: (1 + 0.025 * Mastery) * X
Current average PWS at 12 Mastery and 15% crit: 1.3 * X

New value of PWS: (1 + 0.016 * Mastery) * X
New value of crit PWS: (2 + 0.048 * Mastery + 0.000256 * Mastery ^ 2) * X
New average PWS at 12 Mastery and 15% crit: 0.85 * 1.192 * X + 0.15 * 2.613 * X = 1.405 * X

So it's on the order of a 6-10% buff to PWS on average. That should make the overall effect pretty much neutral in terms of raw numbers. It should actually be a buff to your effective numbers.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
you should all move out of this thread and start one to discuss. Giving merrit to the OP's orignal post by discussing in this thread makes me sad.

Also gg on your changes.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13830
Thank you Blizzard for listening somewhat. Kudos.
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90 Gnome Priest
17125
Kaels do you have a thread of your own I should constantly check up on for disc math? wtb
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1 Blood Elf Hunter
0
I enjoy the part of these threads where people say

"druids don't have to pre "insert spell" like disc does."

Druid has no burst aoe healing, druid is all about pre hotting for the expected damage spike.

When exactly did priests prep work become more worthy then druids?
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90 Human Priest
11345
02/15/2013 02:22 AMPosted by Ceddya
If the way crit and DA work for us is getting changed, then it's fair to assume that the SS formulua is going to follow suit. The one I posted takes those changes into account.


You left out (1-crit) as a multiplier on the first "PoH size" I think.

I'm expecting (get it? Ok, bad math joke.) the formula to be:

(1-crit%)(noncrit poh size)+(crit%)(crit poh + aegis size)(metagem) = SS size

which is the same thing as it is on ptr before these changes, just the way we calculate noncrit poh size and crit poh + aegis size changed.
Edited by Amabella on 2/15/2013 8:05 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
I'm expecting (get it? Ok, bad math joke.) the formula to be:

(1-crit%)(noncrit poh size)+(crit%)(crit poh + aegis size)(metagem) = SS size


The non-crit and crit poh size should be the same (I think, I have no idea if the meta applies), so we'd end up with (1-crit% * non-crit PoH) + (crit% * non-crit PoH) which I just condensed to (non-crit PoH).

Although, even with the meta applying to the crit portion, we're probably looking at a further reduction to SS.
Edited by Ceddya on 2/15/2013 8:09 AM PST
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100 Human Priest
19060
I'm curious to see if they do something like:
(1-crit%)(noncrit poh size *(new mastery*0.5) )+(crit%)(crit poh *(new mastery*0.5) + aegis size)(metagem) = SS size

If they left off the bolded parts, it would be this weird game where spirit shell is a throughput loss, but still has an advantage in being a bigger absorb and the ability to stack on top of an existing divine aegis. I'll just wait, it's probably the exact same as non-spirit shell spells because they want us using it like a smart cd instead of a throughput boost.
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90 Human Priest
11345
I see what you did; you included the "heal portion" of the mastery as part of base PoH and then factored it out. When you say "48% more than the average noncrit PoH" though, you are referring to the pre-mastery size, while in your formula "noncrit PoH" includes heal mastery.

The way mastery works for everyone is there is a base amount so that you benefit even with no mastery gear. We used to call it 8 "points" but we don't use that terminology anymore. for Disc, the base amount is +12.8% to absorbs and +6.4% to heals. A character with 8824 mastery would have +36.33% to absorbs and +18.16% to heals. The 3000 mastery raid buff would bump that up to +44.33% to absorbs and +22.16% to heals. Also note that the metagem which increases the size of your crits still works.

If you had all of the above mastery and the crit gem and you cast a heal for 100K, it would heal for 122K, or if it crit, it would heal for 126K and proc a 182K absorb from Divine Aegis.


Given GC's example here the crit meta is applying to both the size of the crit heal (making the metagem the only thing that actually makes the crit "heal" portion larger) and the aegis generated.

100 * 1.2216 * 1.03 = ~126

100 * 1.2216 * 1.03 * 1.4433 = ~182

02/15/2013 08:08 AMPosted by Ceddya
Although, even with the meta applying to the crit portion, we're probably looking at a further reduction to SS.


If you were planning to stack crit in 5.2 then yes, after the change SS will be a little smaller. It's around 6% in my current gear (crit stacking); less if you have more mastery and less crit.
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