Blizzard killing Disc Priest

90 Human Priest
11345
For clarity: this is 6% smaller than it was after the previous changes to SS scaling and auto-DA removal, not 6% less than it is on live right now.
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97 Gnome Mage
9425
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The only time changes like this bother people are when they play Discipline incorrectly. People that have been playing Discipline for many years (or just have been playing WoW for that long) can tell you that Blizzard designs the game with both rules, and intentions. I like to call Blizzard's rules "The Letter of the Law" and I call Blizzard's intentions "The Spirit of the Law." The Letter of the Law is what you see in patch notes and in game mechanics.

You can follow the rules or Letter of the Law (avoid cheating) but still ignore the intention or Spirit of the Law. For example, there was a recent change to Blingtron that makes it account-wide. People were logging on with 10 alts every day to collect Blingtron gifts. That was not cheating. They were following the Letter of the Law. But it was never Blizzard's intention to have people log on 10 alts to max out their odds of getting good stuff.

The Letter of the Law for Discipline is that Spirit Shell allows Discipline Priests to convert Prayer of Healing into a much more powerful group-wide shield spell. However, that is not the Spirit in which it was intended. Back a long time ago, Blizzard decided that Discipline Priests needed some multi-target shield spells. They started out with Power Word: Barrier. Initially, it was designed to absorb a huge amount of damage over 20 seconds. However, it was too powerful in PvP, because it could be used on a single target and make them nearly invincible. So it was converted to a damage-reduction effect.

So next, they tried to just make PW: Shield an ability that can be cast so fast and so often, that it could be used to shield entire raids. But that was horribly boring. After that, they decided to try to force Discipline to be like all the other healers. Give them a plain Heal, Flash Heal, Greater Heal, and Prayer of Healing, and just get away from Shielding altogether by nerfing PW: Shield down to 15 second duration and a tiny absorb amount. Then nobody wanted to play Discipline in PvE anymore.

So then came MoP, and they introduced Spirit Shell. It was originally just a PW: Shield spell with a cast time attached to it. It replaced Greater Heal for a while, but then people had trouble in PvP because of the long cast time. So then it replaced Flash Heal for a while, but people had trouble spot-healing in raids, and it was a little too powerful in PvP. So the result was what we have on live: a spell that converts healing spells into shielding spells, in an attempt to give Discipline something else to do other than spam PW: Shield.

However, Spirit Shell became so good, and PW: Shield was so expensive and bad, that nobody used PW: Shield anymore. So now, they're buffing PW: Shield by reducing the cost and increasing the absorb, and nerfing Spirit Shell a little bit by removing Mastery from it, and making Crit affect it instead.

The problem is that players were following the min-max approach, and only following the Letter of the Law. They never looked at Blizzard's intentions for Spirit Shell, and just milked the unintended functionality for every last drop. They weren't cheating, but that's not what Spirit Shell was ever designed to do.

So for people like me who have been playing with Spirit Shell the way it was intended to be played (as a castable shield spell in addition to PW: Shield), this change doesn't affect me much at all. I might re-gem to Crit instead of Mastery, but that's not a big deal. It's only the people who tried to play the numbers that are having adverse reactions to this.

Discipline is, and has always been, an intuitive specialization that requires a lot of forethought. It has a very high skill cap, and you get rewarded for learning how to use your abilities to synchronize with other healers in a raid. Spirit Shell's unintended functionality endangered that. Rather than increasing our complexity and skill cap, it decreased it. Instead of increasing the effectiveness of other healers in the raid, we overpowered them and made them feel like their heals were wasted or too weak to compete.

That is how people need to look at this issue. It isn't a nerf because we're too strong. It's returning to the Spirit of the Law, rather than just following the Letter of the Law with insensate lust.


I love this explanation the best. The fact that your name is Angel makes it even better!
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63 Dwarf Priest
0

No, I didn't. I said, "Proactive healing (HoTing, Shielding) is only a benefit over reactive healing in situations where reactive healing wouldn't be fast enough to keep someone alive," as in, if two spells can be used to keep someone alive and they are equally successful at doing so with similar efficiency, despite having different mechanics, the individual power of the spells is irrelevant regardless of what a healing meter shows. Also, I said, "this benefit will always be smaller than it appears, as a rule."

Right, which is what I disagreed with. The situation you describe, "where reactive healing wouldn't be fast enough to keep people alive" is one that becomes more and more common as you move through high level content. In heroic fights you are meant to be able to die in a matter of seconds... it is how they stack on the "challenge" for healers. Absorbs are always the best equipped to deal with this, so arguing that they're "equal" when it's not the case is silly, as it is an advantage Absorbs will always have, regardless of if it's needed or not. And like I said it becomes needed very quickly.

Nothing there said "HoTs of a certain raw healing power are exactly as effective as absorbs." :) The point there was that shields will look stronger even if the spells are designed to be equivalent or the HoT is stronger (HoT is cheaper, does more healing) because even the fattest of HoT won't be taken first if the shield covers the damage.

What I said above this quote addresses that. Of course shields will look stronger on meters, again, this is all really common stuff.


I think you read more into my posts than was there, unfortunately. I was saying that it is irrelevant with regard to balance if one heal is perceived as stronger than another if they both do the same job adequately with similar efficiency. That's why I said, "Right, but that doesn't make an absorb inherently stronger than a regular heal or even a HoT, unless they have inappropriate costs or other restrictions."

It seems I did. I am a little puzzled as to why you would respond to my post about the intrinsic strengths that absorbs have with a long, drawn-out post when your basic point was "Yes, shields are a more powerful type of healing, but I feel that meters may exacerbate this perception." Everything else you added made it seem like you disagreed.

My original statement was, "The balance problem, I think, actually comes from the slow big heals and HoTs, especially in environments where damage is being applied quickly and in large chunks." That means I think absorbs are straight forward and easily balanced. It's the others that aren't, not that absorbs are equally strong to anything in particular.

As I said, absorbs are the outlier, which means they are what needs to be balanced. Unfortunately, as we can both agree on, finding the right relationship between them and other heals is the issue.

I thought your point was: "Add in the benefit of being the only type of "heal" that can be effective on a full-health target (which reduces the need for thoughtfully choosing where to place your heal)"

Those were two separate points. Absorbs being placeable on full health targets was me listing another advantage that absorbs have over any other type of heal, but it was not necessarily related (though it can be) to their ease of use.

I'm still trying to figure out why you think any given shield requires less thought than any particular spell of the same type (single target vs AoE) as to where to place it. PW:S is a single target heal that you must target on appropriate targets using your valuable GCDs in a heroic raid. You place it on priority targets, no? In what way is any other single target heal "more thoughtful?"

Because it will not waste its effective healing. Even if chosen on a proper target, a HoT or direct heal can result in wasted healing, and therefore wasted time and mana. That is simply just how heals interact. Absorbs do not have this weakness. You don't have to worry about spooling up your big 2.5 second heal only to have some other healer top the guy off (or even heal him a little) resulting in some of that time and mana being wasted.

Basically, in terms of potential healing to be done, Absorbs have their own piece of the pie already cut out and handed to them. In part, it means they interact with other heals very little. Yes, this makes them look good on meters, but it also means they are the best suited people to heal that damage when people could die. It is a very significant advantage.
Edited by Urteil on 2/15/2013 2:46 PM PST
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79 Tauren Warrior
4120
WoW
Edited by Burserker on 2/15/2013 3:47 PM PST
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79 Tauren Warrior
4120
It's toons like this that convince me that there are blues that have normal toons and defend Blizzard no matter how often and how much they mess over the players. You are either blind or short a few brain cells when you can talk like this.

The short story and the undeniable truth is this... Blizzard is in the business of making money and just like Microsoft they are going to do the least amount of work to repackage and dumb down a garbage bag and tie it with a pretty red bow and call it NEW and IMPROVED. They need to cut the amount of programmers, maintenance eng. and servers used to run the game, all the while slowing the game by clocking down the base movement and increasing cool down timers so everything takes longer to do anything and milk you for all the gold you have so you play more.

Blizzard wants and needs money and if poop sells they are doing a wonderful job of marketing it as the new thing... LOL

The only way they will listen is by hurting their pockets... I have already canceled both of my accounts and I def understand why my guild alone has over 200 players that have not logged in or played in over 6 months. They have spoken and now so have I... lets see how many more does it take to migrate to other new and upcoming games that DO NOT CHANGE YOU MONTHLY LIKE (CABAL) to play online so Blizzard gets their head out of their... the darkness and into the light and remember what brought them to the top on the first place.

Let's learn a few things today:

1. Buffing other healers wouldn't do much. Disc looks so powerful because damage is being suppressed, leaving very little for other healers to work with. The exception here is Holy Paladins, who would probably jump to second slot consistently and leave even less damage for the rest to heal.

2. I'm sure you'll say "well, Blizzard can just increase raid damage then!". Wrong. That would be a massive penalty to any raid running without a Discipline Priest—and arguably make them a mandatory addition to at least every 25M raid.

3. You may not like the changes being made. That's fine. You may think you'll enjoy your class less. That's fine too.

What's not fine is running around like Chicken Little spouting off hyperbolic sky-is-falling garbage. Disc is not being killed. We'll still be a desirable spec at every level of play.

4. Companies cannot run without money (at least not for very long, anyway). While not everyone can be pleased, it's safe to say that Blizzard cares enough about what the majority of their subscribers want to ensure that they continue playing the game.

5. Acting like a child and throwing a tantrum on the forums is probably the worst way to get what you want. If you have concerns, post them in a reasonable, intelligible and preferably grammatically sound manner.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Wow, Elethia is a blue?! THIS IS SUCH NEWS TO ME.

ELETHIA, I NEED BUFFS. COME BUFF ME NAO.

*hides*
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60 Troll Hunter
2720
Tell it like it is my brother... they might have started like many software companies do and actually have the intentions of developing a new game that would be liked and would demonstrate their prowess in comparison to what was available at the time. But somewhere along the way their intentions were corrupted like many things that become popular do and it became a money sucking dupe the player and use them and abuse them till they bleed kind of business where if they could not afford the newest model high performance car in their garage, they were not happy.

Remember when you would call in and someone actually answered the phone. Remember when they actually talked with you and helped you. Remember when it was fun to run your toon and when you finally got that gear or achievement it really meant something... I know that was soo pre Pandaria when toons actually came in pairs one for the horde and one for the alliance and they actually worked with cool fun ideas not a dumb fat cartoon panda that bounces around like a moron. what a joke... on us... yea I cancelled today too

02/15/2013 03:46 PMPosted by Burserker
The short story and the undeniable truth is this... Blizzard is in the business of making money and just like Microsoft they are going to do the least amount of work to repackage and dumb down a garbage bag and tie it with a pretty red bow and call it NEW and IMPROVED. They need to cut the amount of programmers, maintenance eng. and servers used to run the game, all the while slowing the game by clocking down the base movement and increasing cool down timers so everything takes longer to do anything and milk you for all the gold you have so you play more.
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90 Dwarf Priest
10145
02/12/2013 09:17 PMPosted by Ladèn
My honest Opinion they should Leave the Disc Priest alone. Blizzard should STOP Screwing around maybe they should buff other Healing Class's to keep up with us instead for screwing over everyone that like's to heal as a Disc Priest but they wont Because BLIZZARD DOESN'T CARE about what people want they only care about getting there MONEY from everyone that play's WOW


1. buffing other healers because of disc being OP will screw up the PvP for Disc, we're already weak vs other healers in PvP.

2. Stop defending Disc PvE for being OP and easy, either you get better or play something else.

3. Understand there are more aspects in this game besides PvE, people such as yourself are to blame for the increase of imbalance of PvE and PvP.

Play Disc PvE when it actually mattered.
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100 Tauren Shaman
HC
18150
The new posted changes are... different. Will be interesting to see some actual numbers on it, not just theories.

Edit: On a side note... WTF happened to quality posts lately? There was a time I would read frequent posters, like Sensations and Tiberria, with interest. (Not intending to call just you 2 out. It isn't just you.) I may not agree with what they posted, but they were interesting reads that at least made me think. Lately... wtf happened? So negative, so dismissive, barely on-topic, little useful information. I've gone from enjoying reading page long posts to reading two sentences, shaking my head, and skipping the rest. Seriously, what happened? Did we make a New Years resolution to act more like jackasses on the internet and no one told me?


Considering what the OP consist of, why should I bother turning a non constructive QQ thread into a constructive one? I'll just post with a condescending attitude to let the world is falling people know how foolish they are.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13955
02/15/2013 03:46 PMPosted by Burserker
It's toons like this that convince me that there are blues that have normal toons and defend Blizzard no matter how often and how much they mess over the players. You are either blind or short a few brain cells when you can talk like this.


Sure. Or, you know, I could be thinking logically and working from the perspective of seeing the same hysterical "only after money" accusations flying at just about every company in existence. It's a nice little conspiracy theory you have, but trying to pin it on a regular (see: routine, well known) poster who has fairly often vocalized disagreement with the direction Blizzard has taken/changes Blizzard has made is an exercise in futility and probably grounds for some mockery.

I'll also say that it's pretty hilarious to have you say what you are on the heels of what I think is an unprecedented massive, mid-expansion mechanical change for Disc.
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86 Blood Elf Priest
2910
1. Buffing other healers wouldn't do much. Disc looks so powerful because damage is being suppressed, leaving very little for other healers to work with. The exception here is Holy Paladins, who would probably jump to second slot consistently and leave even less damage for the rest to heal.


I strongly agree. If you look at a discipline priest healing alone. it is actually not that impressive. The problem with nerfing them it that they don't really have an "overdrive" like the other healers. what you see is what you get. If damage exceeds their healing capacity then there is not much they can do, whereas say a druid can go tree form.
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90 Troll Priest
9550
02/15/2013 07:05 PMPosted by Validoria
If you look at a discipline priest healing alone. it is actually not that impressive.


The point of a disc priest is to reduce or make incoming damage nill - healing up damage taken is an important part of the spec, but yeah.
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86 Blood Elf Priest
2910
I think part of the problem here is that it is hard to tell how much the disp priest is really doing. absorbs are incompatible with the way healing output is typically measured. PWS absorbs damage as it happens, so any actual healing done will be counted as over-healing. It is not a matter of them out performing others. it is more a matter of them bumping other people off the heal meter. It would take extensive testing to really get the whole picture.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/15/2013 07:22 PMPosted by Validoria
I think part of the problem here is that it is hard to tell how much the disp priest is really doing. absorbs are incompatible with the way healing output is typically measured. PWS absorbs damage as it happens, so any actual healing done will be counted as over-healing. It is not a matter of them out performing others. it is more a matter of them bumping other people off the heal meter. It would take extensive testing to really get the whole picture.


Absorbs are fully recorded in the combat log and it is absolutely possible to measure them accurately.
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86 Blood Elf Priest
2910
to a point, but it is the fact that absorbs happen first and bump heals off the chart that makes it difficult to pin down.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/15/2013 07:28 PMPosted by Validoria
to a point, but it is the fact that absorbs happen first and bump heals off the chart that makes it difficult to pin down.


The heals are recorded, but they go to overheal unless the shielded person is lacking health.
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90 Human Priest
5860
I think Validoria is getting at the suppression effect of disc in overheal situations affecting perceived balance.

A Hpriest and a dpriest could theoretically have the same maximum output potential, but anytime there's more healing available than needed, the dpriest dominates, whereas with another healer it wouldn't be as drastic.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Okay, yes, I see that now. Sorry, that isn't how I was reading it.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
I think Validoria is getting at the suppression effect of disc in overheal situations affecting perceived balance.

A Hpriest and a dpriest could theoretically have the same maximum output potential, but anytime there's more healing available than needed, the dpriest dominates, whereas with another healer it wouldn't be as drastic.


And how is that not a problem? Healing, especially crits that would be overheal for any other healer become absorbs for Disc, effectively letting them be "saved for later". Meanwhile, Druids/Monks/Shaman need to have pinpoint accuracy of to get that level of effectiveness. In no way, shape or form would it be balanced for raw healing to be balanced 1:1 with absorbs.

We all know that the mechanics of spells (that constitute a very significant portion of their spec's output) like Rejuv, Renewing Mists, Healing Rain, Beacon of Light, etc mean that they are pre-disposed to having high overhealing percentages. That expected overhealing has to be compensated for when determining balance, becauase output from absorbs will always be better in every way than output from raw healing.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/15/2013 07:45 PMPosted by Tiberria
And how is that not a problem?


No one said it was not a problem. Perhaps you should stop reading things into other people's statements.
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