Blizzard killing Disc Priest

90 Pandaren Priest
7670
02/13/2013 11:43 AMPosted by Tiriél
The tier pieces are also perfectly itemized for Holy.


Yea, I tried pointing out on the PTR forums that the T15 2-piece isn't going to benefit Disc as much as Holy (especially with Holy's DI), but I doubt it's going to be changed at this stage.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13295
The loss of DA stacking is somewhat compensated by the ability to stack PW:S on the raid.

I did some heroic PTR testing last night and my throughput seemed fine. It does look like I'll be keeping my T14 4 piece for a while and there's going to be much higher usage of PW:S. Also, it's looking like Holy may come out ahead on fights requiring pure throughput, as Holy's output with the T15 2/4 piece is actually really good.


Exactly. It's going back to how we've always raid-healed. We use PW: Shield, Borrowed Time, and Prayer of Healing. The only reason we got away from that is because Blizzard nerfed PW: Shield so badly in Cataclysm that nobody ever used it anymore. Getting back to PW: Shield is a big deal. Prayer of Healing is a highly situational spell that Discipline is supposed to use occasionally. PW: Shield is a core Discipline spell that is supposed to be used constantly. On Live, this is reversed. Nobody uses PW: Shield except for Rapture and the occasional person near death, but PoH is used constantly. It's not supposed to be that way.
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90 Human Priest
11345
People seem to be a little confused about the mechanics of spirit shell, both on live and on the ptr.

Here's how it works on live:

Start with your spellpower.

Multiply by 0.838 and then add 8688. This is the size of your average noncrit PoH.

Multiply that number by 1.3.
(The DA contribution to spirit shell did not get changed when DA was buffed to 50%.)

Multiply the total by (1 + chance to crit%).

Multiply that total by (1 + mastery%).

For example, using my armory stats and in inner fire, I have 29929 spellpower.

29929*0.838+8688 = 33768.5

1.1818 is 1+crit, 1.3333 is 1+mastery.

33768.5*1.3*1.1818*1.3333 = 69171

In game, my spirit shell absorbs 69168, so there's a tiny rounding error somewhere.

Here's how it works on PTR:

Start with your spellpower.

Multiply by 0.838 and then add 8688. This is the size of your average noncrit PoH.

Multiply this number by your chance to NOT CRIT, or (1 - crit%). Call this "a".

Go back to your average noncrit PoH size. Multiply it by (2 + 1 + mastery).

Then multiply that by your chance to crit.

Then multiply that by your metagem. Call this "b".

Add a and b.

For example, on PTR I have 26864 spellpower in inner fire.

26864 * 0.838 + 8688 = 31200

I have 17.43% chance to crit unbuffed on ptr.
31200 * (1-0.1743) = 25761.84 <--- This is "a".

I have 31.11% mastery on ptr.
31200 * (2 + 1 + 0.3111) * (0.1743) * 1.03 = 18546.48 <--- This is "b".

a+b = 44308

On ptr, my spirit shell absorbs 44146.

Why the larger discrepancy on ptr? Well, I'm pretty sure blizzard messed up the way the metagem interacts with the spirit shell formula. I reported this once and GC replied that I was correct and it would be fixed, but it looks like they introduced a slightly different error into the calculation while fixing the other error. Right now my theory is that the person typing in the spirit shell formula mistyped the metagem multiplier (or there is some strange background calculation going on that is broken), as the formula matches perfectly when you do not have a metagem equipped. If you edit the metagem multiplier to 1.021 instead of 1.03, it also matches.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
16700
3/10
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13295
People seem to be a little confused about the mechanics of spirit shell, both on live and on the ptr.

Here's how it works on live:

Start with your spellpower.

Multiply by 0.838 and then add 8688. This is the size of your average noncrit PoH.

Multiply that number by 1.3.
(The DA contribution to spirit shell did not get changed when DA was buffed to 50%.)

Multiply the total by (1 + chance to crit%).

Multiply that total by (1 + mastery%).

For example, using my armory stats and in inner fire, I have 29929 spellpower.

29929*0.838+8688 = 33768.5

1.1818 is 1+crit, 1.3333 is 1+mastery.

33768.5*1.3*1.1818*1.3333 = 69171

In game, my spirit shell absorbs 69168, so there's a tiny rounding error somewhere.

Here's how it works on PTR:

Start with your spellpower.

Multiply by 0.838 and then add 8688. This is the size of your average noncrit PoH.

Multiply this number by your chance to NOT CRIT, or (1 - crit%). Call this "a".

Go back to your average noncrit PoH size. Multiply it by (2 + 1 + mastery).

Then multiply that by your chance to crit.

Then multiply that by your metagem. Call this "b".

Add a and b.

For example, on PTR I have 26864 spellpower in inner fire.

26864 * 0.838 + 8688 = 31200

I have 17.43% chance to crit unbuffed on ptr.
31200 * (1-0.1743) = 25761.84 <--- This is "a".

I have 31.11% mastery on ptr.
31200 * (2 + 1 + 0.3111) * (0.1743) * 1.03 = 18546.48 <--- This is "b".

a+b = 44308

On ptr, my spirit shell absorbs 44146.

Why the larger discrepancy on ptr? Well, I'm pretty sure blizzard messed up the way the metagem interacts with the spirit shell formula. I reported this once and GC replied that I was correct and it would be fixed, but it looks like they introduced a slightly different error into the calculation while fixing the other error. Right now my theory is that the person typing in the spirit shell formula mistyped the metagem multiplier (or there is some strange background calculation going on that is broken), as the formula matches perfectly when you do not have a metagem equipped. If you edit the metagem multiplier to 1.021 instead of 1.03, it also matches.


Yes, that looks like how it works.
However, you forgot one major point:

Right now, on Live, Spirit Shell does not work with Inner Focus.
On the PTR, it does.

Since Inner Focus increases your chance to crit by 100% (making it 117% chance to crit in your case), and you have the chance NOT to crit as one of your calculations, then you are multiplying it by 0 or a negative number, which I don't think it works like that.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Right now, on Live, Spirit Shell does not work with Inner Focus.
On the PTR, it does.


That's not true. Spirit Shell has worked with Inner Focus at least since 5.1.
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90 Human Priest
11345
Inner focus doubles the size of spirit shell on both live and the ptr.

Edit: I haven't checked the most recent ptr build and the realms are down now, but that is how it worked last time I checked on ptr. I don't see why it would be any different now, but I'll test when the realms come back up.
Edited by Amabella on 2/13/2013 12:12 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13295
02/13/2013 12:10 PMPosted by Amabella
Inner focus doubles the size of spirit shell on both live and the ptr.


It shouldn't double the size if it's working correctly. It should triple it. It should get 100% increase from Crit chance, and an additional 100% increase from Divine Aegis.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9855
Right now, on Live, Spirit Shell does not work with Inner Focus.
On the PTR, it does.


really....

you're either Dumb, Blind, or Both
Edited by Shammyren on 2/13/2013 12:15 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/13/2013 12:14 PMPosted by Ångel
Inner focus doubles the size of spirit shell on both live and the ptr.


It shouldn't double the size if it's working correctly. It should triple it. It should get 100% increase from Crit chance, and an additional 100% increase from Divine Aegis.


http://www.troll.me/images/futurama-fry/not-sure-if-serious-or-just-stupid.jpg
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13295
Right now, on Live, Spirit Shell does not work with Inner Focus.
On the PTR, it does.


really....

you're either Dumb, Blind, or Both


It doesn't work the way it's supposed to work is what I meant. It still has an effect, it's just not the correct effect.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/13/2013 12:19 PMPosted by Ångel
It doesn't work the way it's supposed to work is what I meant. It still has an effect, it's just not the correct effect.


It works precisely the way it's supposed to work. I don't think you understand how it's supposed to work.
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90 Human Priest
11345
It shouldn't double the size if it's working correctly. It should triple it. It should get 100% increase from Crit chance, and an additional 100% increase from Divine Aegis.


I said that's what it does, not what I (or anyone else) think it should do.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13295
02/13/2013 12:18 PMPosted by Tiriél


It shouldn't double the size if it's working correctly. It should triple it. It should get 100% increase from Crit chance, and an additional 100% increase from Divine Aegis.


http://www.troll.me/images/futurama-fry/not-sure-if-serious-or-just-stupid.jpg


Cast Inner Focus + Prayer of Healing on Live. Take however much is healed, and add the Divine Aegis shield to that number. Then repeat that same test, only use Spirit Shell too. Compare the numbers you get.

Then go to PTR. Cast Inner Focus + Prayer of Healing. Take however much is healed, and add the Divine Aegis shield to that number. Then repeat the same test, only use Spirit Shell too. Compare the numbers you get.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Cast Inner Focus + Prayer of Healing on Live. Take however much is healed, and add the Divine Aegis shield to that number. Then repeat that same test, only use Spirit Shell too. Compare the numbers you get.

Then go to PTR. Cast Inner Focus + Prayer of Healing. Take however much is healed, and add the Divine Aegis shield to that number. Then repeat the same test, only use Spirit Shell too. Compare the numbers you get.


You are aware that the live version of SS is only factoring in 30% DA, yes?
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13295
02/13/2013 12:19 PMPosted by Tiriél
It doesn't work the way it's supposed to work is what I meant. It still has an effect, it's just not the correct effect.


It works precisely the way it's supposed to work. I don't think you understand how it's supposed to work.


Well, from what the Blues said during Beta, the way Inner Focus was supposed to work with Spirit Shell was to incorporate your Crit Chance as a pure throughput increase. If you had a 10% chance to crit, that would equate to a 15% increase in throughput (10% chance to get 100% more healing from the crit, and 50% of that crit as a shield). When you crit a heal, it a 220% increase (3.2 times as strong as a non-crit spell).

So a critical heal (or critical shield in this case) should be at least 3.2 times stronger than the non-crit version, depending on the size of your Divine Aegis. If your Greater Heal normally hits for 100,000, it will crit for 200,000 + 120,000 Divine Aegis = 320,000, assuming you have 0 mastery on gear. Your Spirit Shell should hit for 320,000 just to break even. Otherwise, there's no point in using them together.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Here are my numbers from Live, btw:

Spirit Shell:

24,140 Spellpower, 38.79 Mastery, No IF, no other buffs: 56,830 single cast.
24,140 Spellpower, 38.79 Mastery, Inner Focus, no other buffs: 113,661

PoH:

24,140 Spellpower, 38.79 Mastery, no IF, no other buffs: 48,638 (28713 raw healing + 19925 DA)
24,140 Spellpower, 38.79 Mastery, Inner Focus, no other buffs: 100,879 (59553 raw healing + 41326 DA)

Can't really check the PTR as it's down.
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90 Pandaren Priest
12925
Cast Inner Focus + Prayer of Healing on Live. Take however much is healed, and add the Divine Aegis shield to that number. Then repeat that same test, only use Spirit Shell too. Compare the numbers you get.


I can't speak for the PTR but on live IF doubles the PoH+DA or the SS PoH, depending on which it is used with. The only "bug" I can see with Inner Focus is if you pair it without SS active, cast a PoH then activate SS and cast another PoH both the non SS PoH and the SS PoH get the benefit of IF.
Edited by Volios on 2/13/2013 12:34 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Well, from what the Blues said during Beta, the way Inner Focus was supposed to work with Spirit Shell was to incorporate your Crit Chance as a pure throughput increase. If you had a 10% chance to crit, that would equate to a 15% increase in throughput (10% chance to get 100% more healing from the crit, and 50% of that crit as a shield). When you crit a heal, it a 220% increase (3.2 times as strong as a non-crit spell).

So a critical heal (or critical shield in this case) should be at least 3.2 times stronger than the non-crit version, depending on the size of your Divine Aegis. If your Greater Heal normally hits for 100,000, it will crit for 200,000 + 120,000 Divine Aegis = 320,000, assuming you have 0 mastery on gear. Your Spirit Shell should hit for 320,000 just to break even. Otherwise, there's no point in using them together.


02/13/2013 12:31 PMPosted by Ångel
Well, from what the Blues said during Beta,


02/13/2013 12:31 PMPosted by Ångel
during Beta,


02/13/2013 12:31 PMPosted by Ångel
Beta


I think I found your problem.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
13295
02/13/2013 12:25 PMPosted by Tiriél
You are aware that the live version of SS is only factoring in 30% DA, yes?


Yes, because it's double-dipping from Mastery.

My point was that comparing the Spirit Shell numbers to each other was not as important as comparing them to their non-Spirit Shell counterparts. If Spirit Shell isn't a shield that is at least as strong as the Crit Heal + Divine Aegis, then there's no point in ever combining Inner Focus with Spirit Shell. The heal and aegis alone are 320% of the original heal. If Spirit Shell isn't 320% the size of a normal PoH, then Inner Focus is not really incorporating critical heals into the shield.
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