Blizzard killing Disc Priest

100 Blood Elf Priest
11880
02/13/2013 12:34 PMPosted by Tiriél
I think I found your problem.


Somebody said "I don't think you understand how it's supposed to work." So I told them the way Blizzard said it was supposed to work. Just because it doesn't work like that now, just means they couldn't figure out how to get it to work correctly. Not that they changed their mind on how it's supposed to work.

Look at the Spirit of the Law, not the Letter of the Law. What was the intention behind it? The intention was to make a spell that instead of splitting throughput between heals and divine aegis, it wrapped everything up into one shield. Is that what happens? No. Is that how it's supposed to happen? Absolutely.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/13/2013 12:35 PMPosted by Ångel
You are aware that the live version of SS is only factoring in 30% DA, yes?


Yes, because it's double-dipping from Mastery.

My point was that comparing the Spirit Shell numbers to each other was not as important as comparing them to their non-Spirit Shell counterparts. If Spirit Shell isn't a shield that is at least as strong as the Crit Heal + Divine Aegis, then there's no point in ever combining Inner Focus with Spirit Shell. The heal and aegis alone are 320% of the original heal. If Spirit Shell isn't 320% the size of a normal PoH, then Inner Focus is not really incorporating critical heals into the shield.


Well, ah, they're technically not the same on live, either. At least not with my current level of Mastery (granted, this is unbuffed. I'm normally right around 50% in raid).
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Priest
11880
Well, ah, they're technically not the same on live, either. At least not with my current level of Mastery (granted, this is unbuffed. I'm normally right around 50% in raid).


I know. That's why I said that "On Live, Spirit Shell doesn't work with Inner Focus." In MoP Beta, they had some problems with trying to get 100% crit chance to factor into the spell. And I'm fairly certain the problem was never fixed. It was said that 5.2 would fix it, but not sure if it's on PTR yet.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/13/2013 12:46 PMPosted by Ångel
Well, ah, they're technically not the same on live, either. At least not with my current level of Mastery (granted, this is unbuffed. I'm normally right around 50% in raid).


I know. That's why I said that "On Live, Spirit Shell doesn't work with Inner Focus." In MoP Beta, they had some problems with trying to get 100% crit chance to factor into the spell. And I'm fairly certain the problem was never fixed. It was said that 5.2 would fix it, but not sure if it's on PTR yet.


My brain hurts.

Angel, Inner Focus works with Spirit Shell on live. You simply don't understand how the math works. That's the only explanation I have, because I genuinely don't want to believe that you're being deliberately obtuse. Spirit Shell and Inner focus have worked together since shortly before 5.1. It was changed during one of the hotfixes.
Reply Quote
02/13/2013 12:46 PMPosted by Ångel
That's why I said that "On Live, Spirit Shell doesn't work with Inner Focus."


And you are incorrect with this statement:

SS Greater Heal: 116486
SS Greater Heal w/IF: 232973

Actual numbers I *just* got. On live.

edit:
SS PoH: 55896
SS PoH w/IF: 111792
Edited by Morenn on 2/13/2013 12:58 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Undead Priest
16980
Then it sounds like you are doing exactly what Blizzard is trying to get people to stop doing with this change. Please keep in mind that if you are upset about this change, it means that you are the kind of person targeted with this change. They want you to stop using PoH the way you've been using it.

Make no mistake. It is a nerf. It's supposed to be a nerf and it's supposed to change the way you play. It's supposed to discourage you from the way you currently do things (which was never intended), and force you into a situation where you try out other things. So rather than fighting it, and worrying about it, just respect it and live with it. PoH was given a Divine Aegis component on every cast as a band-aid. Blizzard is just taking away the band-aid and addressing the original problem that the band-aid covered up.


<-- 25man raider, IE the format that requires AoE healing the majority of every progression fight. Imagine trying to heal a fight like H. Garalon with only single target heals? While on a 10man that's not really a big deal, on 25man it's a HUGE deal.

I've been rolling PoH for 2 years ever since they added it in 4.0.6 if the fight was appropriate (high raid damage fights)
The only reason it's become a problem is because of the 30% -> 50% change in 5.0.5.

That being said, as I've said repeatedly, the problem isn't that they are nerfing our spells it is that we are getting no compensation for a complete change in play style.

If they want us to heal up after damage, why not make PoH competitive to do just that? Instead it's terribly weak and still gimped by it's party limitation. Why not change Discs PoH to smart heal when not under the influence of SS? The reason why in the past this has been shot down is because of the need to keep stacking DA... why not rid us of the party limitation and compensate for the changes done to our class.

10 man Disc while still the worst healer in 5.2, will be at least decent. 25man Disc is a different beast. The reason I spam PoH? It's because IT IS THE ONLY AOE HEAL I HAVE (that isn't on a long cooldown). Disc can't heal after damage, because other healers have much much better burst healing. By the time I've cast two PoH's, the raid is already at full (and thanks to smart healing, half of my PoH's have likely been overheal).

I did some heroic PTR testing last night and my throughput seemed fine. It does look like I'll be keeping my T14 4 piece for a while and there's going to be much higher usage of PW:S. Also, it's looking like Holy may come out ahead on fights requiring pure throughput, as Holy's output with the T15 2/4 piece is actually really good.

Overall, I'm really enjoying the new Disc play style involving weaving in Penance and PW:S/BT between the PoH casts.. Not having to spam PoH continuously is so much more fun.


10man Heroic testing. On 10man PW:S is a tremendous tool. on 25man it's pretty insignificant for anything other than emergency's. On 10man Penance cant hit 30% of the raid while on 25man a PoH is only 20% of the raid.

Again <--- 25man raider. 10mans are a completely different beast.
Edited by Poena on 2/13/2013 12:55 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Human Priest
11345
02/13/2013 12:35 PMPosted by Ångel
Yes, because it's double-dipping from Mastery.


It's not double dipping - mastery only gets applied once. However, it is applied to what would have been the non-absorb part of PoH as well, which is what makes current SS scale so well with mastery.

My point was that comparing the Spirit Shell numbers to each other was not as important as comparing them to their non-Spirit Shell counterparts. If Spirit Shell isn't a shield that is at least as strong as the Crit Heal + Divine Aegis, then there's no point in ever combining Inner Focus with Spirit Shell. The heal and aegis alone are 320% of the original heal. If Spirit Shell isn't 320% the size of a normal PoH, then Inner Focus is not really incorporating critical heals into the shield.


You're right that non-SS PoH gains more from IF than SS PoH does post 5.2. It's probably still going to be beneficial to use IF + SS because you will generate far less overhealing, which will compensate for the loss of theoretical throughput. The difference is less than your typical overheal if you want an inner focus SS PoH to be the same size as a crit PoH + aegis. If you want to add 100% crit directly into the formula then sure, the difference would be even larger, but this seems like an example of the "letter vs spirit of the law" idea you posted earlier in the thread: SS heals are supposed to be the same size as non-SS heals.

You could try reporting it in the ptr issues thread, but I wouldn't have any high hopes for this getting changed.
Edited by Amabella on 2/13/2013 7:58 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Priest
11880
That's why I said that "On Live, Spirit Shell doesn't work with Inner Focus."


And you are incorrect with this statement:

SS Greater Heal: 116486
SS Greater Heal w/IF: 232973

Actual numbers I *just* got. On live.


When I say it doesn't work, I mean it doesn't work correctly. It has an effect, it just doesn't have the correct effect. It's a bug, or a failure on the parts of the people coding the stuff.

You are comparing Spirit Shell with Spirit Shell. You should be comparing non-Spirit Shell Greater Heal with Spirit Shell enhanced Greater Heal. If your Greater Heal hits for 116,486 that means it crits for 232,973 and gives a at least a 140,000 Divine Aegis. That means that without Spirit Shell, you get 372,000 throughput from Inner Focus and Greater Heal. If you use Spirit Shell, you should be getting at least that much, because that's how much you get from a critical Greater Heal without Spirit Shell. You are gimping your Greater Heal throughput by using Spirit Shell with it.

What that means is that either Crit or Divine Aegis is getting left out of the equation, because it's not as strong as normal crits.
Edited by Ångel on 2/13/2013 1:03 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
02/13/2013 12:54 PMPosted by Amabella
t's probably still going to be beneficial to use IF + SS because you will generate far less overhealing, which will compensate for the loss of theoretical throughput.


Without a guaranteed DA from PoH, it might actually be better to use IF outside of SS on fights with pulsing damage as the DA portion from a crit PoH should roughly absorb as much as the extra shield from IF + SS.

It's still going to be situational though, using the IF + SS combo saves you a PoH cast to achieve the same amount of absorbs, so it'd probably still be better for fights with spikes in damage.
Edited by Ceddya on 2/13/2013 1:09 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
12925
My brain hurts.

Angel, Inner Focus works with Spirit Shell on live. You simply don't understand how the math works. That's the only explanation I have, because I genuinely don't want to believe that you're being deliberately obtuse. Spirit Shell and Inner focus have worked together since shortly before 5.1. It was changed during one of the hotfixes.


Ehh, I think he is arguing with the semantics more than anything. The wording of IF in that it raises the critical strike chance by 100% isn't really consistent with what it actually does when paired with SS. I think the change where they "fixed" it to work with SS just made it double the spell effect when used with an applicable ability during SS. It doesn't have anything to do with critical effect chance. This is inconsistent with what IF is supposed to be doing.
Reply Quote
It has an effect, it just doesn't have the correct effect. It's a bug, or a failure on the parts of the people coding the stuff.


I quoted you directly, if by saying "it doesn't work with" didn't really mean "it doesn't work with" then you should have probably taken a moment to say what you actually meant to avoid confusion.

That said, Annabella already explained why it is a good idea to use IF with SS even if the heal+DA is a larger number.
Edited by Morenn on 2/13/2013 1:07 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Human Priest
11345
Without a guaranteed DA from PoH, it might actually be better to use IF outside of SS as the DA portion from a crit PoH should roughly absorb as much as the extra shield from IF + SS.


In my current gear, with 5.2 SS functionality (as it is on the ptr right now) and full raid buffs:

Inner focus PoH: 76792 heal, 59977 aegis (per target)
136769 total

Inner focus Spirit shell PoH: 124188 shield (per target)

In my gear, SS is better if my overheal on the "actual heal" portion of the IF-PoH exceeds 16.4%. That's almost always.

Edit: I agree that if you are faced with a situation where both IF and SS are off cooldown and the raid was at 50% or something, you would use IF-PoH first, and then activate SS. I wouldn't use IF + PoH outside of SS for pure absorbs though.
Edited by Amabella on 2/13/2013 1:13 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
When I say it doesn't work, I mean it doesn't work correctly. It has an effect, it just doesn't have the correct effect. It's a bug, or a failure on the parts of the people coding the stuff.


It does, at least for SS + PoH. You need to account for the fact that SS + PoH uses 30% DA in its formula - (PoH + 30% DA) * (1+crit) * (1+mastery).

In fact, the fact that an IF/SS+PoH shields for double the amount as a normal SS+PoH means that it's sorta double dipping from Crit, as a normal IF/PoH will never exceed 100% crit.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Priest
12105
I am concerned about the upcoming changes. However, the spec is not dead, I will not be rerolling, or threaten to quit if Blizzard doesn't "fix" it. I will adjust, like any decent healer should, just like with every other class change every healer has endured since launch.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
10man Heroic testing. On 10man PW:S is a tremendous tool. on 25man it's pretty insignificant for anything other than emergency's. On 10man Penance cant hit 30% of the raid while on 25man a PoH is only 20% of the raid.

Again <--- 25man raider. 10mans are a completely different beast.


I'm a 25 man raider too? I don't see why PW:S would stop being good in a 25-man. By this logic, every heal and CD that doesn't scale proportionally to raid size becomes pretty insignificant too.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Priest
11880
02/13/2013 01:05 PMPosted by Morenn
It has an effect, it just doesn't have the correct effect. It's a bug, or a failure on the parts of the people coding the stuff.


I quoted you directly, if by saying "it doesn't work with" didn't really mean "it doesn't work with" then you should have probably taken a moment to say what you actually meant to avoid confusion.

That said, Annabella already explained why it is a good idea to use IF with SS even if the heal+DA is a larger number.


I cannot control how you perceive what I say, and I'm not always going to be able to explain myself perfectly to everybody around me. That's why I offered clarification 3 or 4 times. See, in my mind, if things are not working the way they are supposed to work, then they are not working. If you go to a restaurant and you order a drink, an entree, and a dessert, and all you get are the drink and dessert, that implies that something went horribly wrong. The waiter wrote your order down incorrectly, or the chef forgot something, or whatever. The point is that getting something 2/3rds correct doesn't imply success. Likewise, it doesn't imply complete and utter failure. But "something not failing completely" is not the same thing as "something working".

Inner Focus does not work with Spirit Shell, because it doesn't actually do what it says it does, or do what it's supposed to do according to Blizzard. It has an effect, but the effect is just a drink and dessert. They left out the entree. Something went wrong. To me, that means that it doesn't work. It doesn't completely fail, true. But it doesn't work either.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/13/2013 01:26 PMPosted by Ångel
Inner Focus does not work with Spirit Shell, because it doesn't actually do what it says it does, or do what it's supposed to do according to Blizzard. It has an effect, but the effect is just a drink and dessert. They left out the entree. Something went wrong. To me, that means that it doesn't work. It doesn't completely fail, true. But it doesn't work either.


It does work. It does actually do what it says it does.

(PoH + 30% DA) * (1 + Crit) * (1 + Mastery)

For me:

(28917 + 8675) * (1+1.0892) * (1+0.3879)

37592 * 2.0892 * 1.3879

109,001.78876256

This is within 4k of the numbers I get casting the actual spell. There is rounding and other jury mandering of the numbers that goes on (you ever notice how your PoH will heal for slightly different amounts, non Crit, even without factoring in Grace? Yes, this is part of that.), but this is close enough that the equation can be taken as "correct."
Reply Quote
90 Human Priest
15890
I can understand how a 25 man raider would see this as making discipline borderline not worth playing as a spec. Unless there are situations where PW:Barrier or Spirit Shell are almost required.

I'm not really sure why I should bother trying to make it work in 10 man when priests have two healing specs available. The only serious limitation that holy has is Chakra - and holy has enough spells that interact with each other nicely that while annoying it can probably be worked around. The problems with discipline in the current PTR have been detailed in this and other threads.

Discipline, as a spec, has had serious mechanical problems ever since it first was seriously used in raiding in Wrath. Bubble bots to not enough mana to do anything to PoH bots to PW:Barrier bots, etc. The spec tends to be good at a very small niche of something, everyone specializes to that one tiny niche, and the niche is nerfed.

(Aside - if someone can explain to me how Chakra is a positive in a ten man raid where you need to both side target and raid heal at the same time, I would greatly appreciate it).
Reply Quote
100 Pandaren Priest
20400
10man Heroic testing. On 10man PW:S is a tremendous tool. on 25man it's pretty insignificant for anything other than emergency's. On 10man Penance cant hit 30% of the raid while on 25man a PoH is only 20% of the raid.

Again <--- 25man raider. 10mans are a completely different beast.


I'm a 25 man raider too? I don't see why PW:S would stop being good in a 25-man. By this logic, every heal and CD that doesn't scale proportionally to raid size becomes pretty insignificant too.


I had to boggle at this as well. DS was all about PW:S spam at the 25 and 10 man level.

I'm glad PoH is losing its universal panacea status.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/13/2013 01:37 PMPosted by Nzete
(Aside - if someone can explain to me how Chakra is a positive in a ten man raid where you need to both side target and raid heal at the same time, I would greatly appreciate it).


It isn't "positive" but it's workable. Paragon's Priest is a big proponent of sitting in Serenity and raid healing via Renew.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]