Blizzard killing Disc Priest

90 Blood Elf Mage
17040
02/13/2013 05:14 PMPosted by Evry
According to Elethia's numbers, it seems fairly straightforward that haste is worse than mastery.

Pretty sure in 5.2 stam is better than mastery if you only cast pws for Rapture.


Um, ok. I understand additional PW:S play isn't to everyone's liking, but I'm a little surprised that after the buffs, you just flat out won't be casting it at all other than on cooldown for Rapture.

None of our secondary stats are particularly stellar. crit edges out haste for throughput per point, but there are some interesting haste breakpoints (for BT renew, 8 casts per SS) and it's easier to not overheal with haste.


You don't want to cast more PW:S as disc, but you are worried about haste breakpoints for renew?

Kaels- pws is still very much mana negative


If I'm not mistaken, PoH and most of your other healing spells for that manner cost mana.
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85 Blood Elf Mage
5510
02/13/2013 06:11 PMPosted by Ceddya
Also, offensive Penance heals the 3 lowest raid targets within 40 yards of the boss for a total that's quite a bit more than CoH. It's going to be Disc's highest HPS and HPM spell. What exactly are the extreme restrictions?


Ooh, I didn't see the patch notes regarding Evange and Penance. That is actually good news. I still am not convinced that it will be able to keep up with Holy in 25s though, considering excellent AOE tools like Sanc and a reliable mastery.

If it does, I'm also not convinced Blizzard will let it remain so.

02/13/2013 06:11 PMPosted by Ceddya
The situations that would favour PW:S weaving in 10 mans would also do the same in 25 mans, and one should be taking full advantage of the fact that our instants will not consume BT.


I'm not convinced that the mana cost (especially after the nerf to Rapture) will be outweighed by the benefits. In 10s the proportional strength of a single target shield is substantially greater. Again, we will have to see how it plays out in Live though.

02/13/2013 06:11 PMPosted by Ceddya
Further, fights with spikes in damage will still favour Disc over Holy. It's not like they've removed SS and the mana reduction to PW:S will make it easier to pre-emptively stack PW:S on the raid if SS is down.


From the PTR, using SS is actually a throughput loss by the sounds of it except for very specific niche situations. I wish they would just drop this and give us a short cooldown reliable aoe.

POH is going to suck until you hit obscene levels of crit (like...30%?). There is an interesting mathy thread on the priest forums too that I'm working through. Once that happens you may well see DA blanketting occur again, and then more nerfs.

Note: by 'spikes' I don't mean single target spikes. Disc will always be good at these. I mean massive instant raid damage spikes, which with the changes to DA/POH and SS, disc will *not* be good at, since blanketting won't be happening anymore at all.

Also some things to keep in mind:
- The 5.2 trinkets may or may not work with many of our abilities. A lot of them are spell procs. If they function the same as the DS trinkets, then any atonement based heal or DA will not proc them.
- T15 2p bonus is a POM buff, which feels very skewed towards holy.

I'm not saying Disc will be dead in 5.2. I do think that many discs are going to feel compelled to reroll Holy in 25s.
Edited by Sorrów on 2/13/2013 6:42 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Mage
5510
02/13/2013 06:31 PMPosted by Taymage
you just flat out won't be casting it at all other than on cooldown for Rapture.


Rapture mana yield got nerfed from 200% to 150% and you can't game it with spirit boosts.

02/13/2013 06:31 PMPosted by Taymage
You don't want to cast more PW:S as disc, but you are worried about haste breakpoints for renew?


If BT isn't going to be consumed by instants, renew spam during BT will actually be very strong.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10380
02/13/2013 06:37 PMPosted by Sorrów
considering excellent AOE tools like Sanc


02/13/2013 06:37 PMPosted by Sorrów
excellent AOE tools like Sanc


02/13/2013 06:37 PMPosted by Sorrów
Sanc


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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85 Blood Elf Mage
5510
What's wrong with Sanc? Coupled with the other Holy tools, it's a very nice static heal. It's not healing rain, by any means - but still.
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90 Human Priest
5860
02/13/2013 06:11 PMPosted by Ceddya
Further, fights with spikes in damage will still favour Disc over Holy

More accurately, spikes with periods of extremely low damage before hand. SS tends to get eaten real fast. Even in lfr on the ptr, it seems mostly useful to reduce overheal on PoH than to save for spikes. Depends on fight.
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90 Human Priest
5860
Um, ok. I understand additional PW:S play isn't to everyone's liking, but I'm a little surprised that after the buffs, you just flat out won't be casting it at all other than on cooldown for Rapture.

You don't want to cast more PW:S as disc, but you are worried about haste breakpoints for renew?

Simply casting more PW:S does not make mastery a stat worth having. It doesn't help your aoe burst at all, and isn't terribly helpful for single target healing either. You'll be casting it for rapture, and sometimes more often.

With enough haste, unglyphed renew spam under BT is more HPS than PoH at about the same HPM. You'll be using BT to boost the already good hps/hpm of Penance and PoM and finish it with PoH. casting PoH -> PoH is better than PW:S -> PoH unless it's for rapture, so unless you're chaining the BT there's not much reason to cast a pws more than every 6-10s.


If I'm not mistaken, PoH and most of your other healing spells for that manner cost mana.

Kaels framed it as mana positive. that's all that was in reply to. pws is still below PoH in terms of hpm. Not all healing spells are mana negative.
Edited by Evry on 2/13/2013 6:58 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
02/13/2013 06:43 PMPosted by Sorrów
What's wrong with Sanc? Coupled with the other Holy tools, it's a very nice static heal. It's not healing rain, by any means - but still.


Sanc heals for like 2k maybe in a 10m group per tick. It is not worth casting ever.

Even in 25's...there's niche times to cast it, but mostly no. It has awful HPS/HPM and it requires basically not moving for 24 seconds.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10380
02/13/2013 06:43 PMPosted by Sorrów
What's wrong with Sanc? Coupled with the other Holy tools, it's a very nice static heal. It's not healing rain, by any means - but still.

(1) It lasts twice as long as it should, so half the healing is wasted in almost every conceivable situation (unless they make another DS).

(2) It's horrifyingly expensive.

(3) The amount of healing it does on any one target is so small that it is literally inconceivable that anyone's life has ever been saved by it. All it does is push PoH/EoL into overheal faster.

I'm not even sure it's worth it for trying to meter-!@#$% in 25m. I can only find one ranked 25H Holy Priest log where it was even cast (granted I'm in a hurry so I'm not looking all that hard, but still) and in that log it clocks in at a whopping 3.3% of total healing, just ahead of Flash Heal, with 76.1% overheal.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10380
02/13/2013 06:56 PMPosted by Evry
Kaels framed it as mana positive.

No, I didn't. I said it's not mana-positive anymore; I was comparing to Wrath, when it was.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/13/2013 07:02 PMPosted by Kaels
What's wrong with Sanc? Coupled with the other Holy tools, it's a very nice static heal. It's not healing rain, by any means - but still.

(1) It lasts twice as long as it should, so half the healing is wasted in almost every conceivable situation (unless they make another DS).

(2) It's horrifyingly expensive.

(3) The amount of healing it does on any one target is so small that it is literally inconceivable that anyone's life has ever been saved by it. All it does is push PoH/EoL into overheal faster.

I'm not even sure it's worth it for trying to meter-!@#$% in 25m. I can only find one ranked 25H Holy Priest log where it was even cast (granted I'm in a hurry so I'm not looking all that hard, but still) and in that log it clocks in at a whopping 3.3% of total healing, just ahead of Flash Heal, with 76.1% overheal.


It's actually not that expensive. It's just kind of pointless in a 10 man.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10380
02/13/2013 07:10 PMPosted by Tiriél
It's actually not that expensive.

Almost 20k mana in my book.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/13/2013 07:13 PMPosted by Kaels
It's actually not that expensive.

Almost 20k mana in my book.


I think I'm almost always in Inner Will when I cast it. If I remember correctly, it's treated as an instant cast spell.
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85 Blood Elf Mage
5510
Sanc heals for like 2k maybe in a 10m group per tick. It is not worth casting ever.Even in 25's...there's niche times to cast it, but mostly no. It has awful HPS/HPM and it requires basically not moving for 24 seconds.


I have been talking about 25m explicitly in all my posts. Disc is still going to be decent in 10s. It's 25s where I think we are going to come up very short.

02/13/2013 07:14 PMPosted by Tiriél
I think I'm almost always in Inner Will when I cast it. If I remember correctly, it's treated as an instant cast spell.


This is actually an interesting point.

Do you think we are going to be forced to Fire/Will twist constantly in 5.2? I mean using Will whenever you PW:S and Fire whenever you Atonement heal?

Does Penance classify as instant?
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
02/13/2013 07:30 PMPosted by Sorrów
I have been talking about 25m explicitly in all my posts. Disc is still going to be decent in 10s. It's 25s where I think we are going to come up very short.


Sanc isn't much better in 25's...it continues to diminish for any bodies beyond 6 inside of it. In Cata, there was no DR on Sanc at all.

02/13/2013 07:30 PMPosted by Sorrów
Does Penance classify as instant?


No.
Edited by Qùess on 2/13/2013 7:55 PM PST
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90 Gnome Priest
11895
02/13/2013 07:13 PMPosted by Kaels
It's actually not that expensive.

Almost 20k mana in my book.

That's actually only a bit more expensive than GHeal.

HW:Sance is 6.3% base mana (I think), GHeal is 5.9%.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
10380
GHeal is absurdly expensive too.

I mean, it's not like we're talking about Healing Rain here. 25k-ish for Healing Rain is an investment. 19k for Sanc is flushing mana down the toilet.
Edited by Kaels on 2/13/2013 8:04 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Mage
5510
02/13/2013 07:54 PMPosted by Qùess
No.


Mm. In that case would it be beneficial to 'twist' Inner Fire/Will? This sounds like something Blizzard should take a look at.
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90 Gnome Priest
11895
02/13/2013 08:08 PMPosted by Sorrów
No.


Mm. In that case would it be beneficial to 'twist' Inner Fire/Will? This sounds like something Blizzard should take a look at.

Not really. Inner Fire and Inner Will are on the GCD, you'd lose massive amounts of throughput spending 3 seconds every however often swapping Inners.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
This is actually an interesting point.

Do you think we are going to be forced to Fire/Will twist constantly in 5.2? I mean using Will whenever you PW:S and Fire whenever you Atonement heal?


I am really bad about IF/IW twisting.

Does Penance classify as instant?


Not for the purposes of being discounted by Inner Will.
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