Ardent Defender Change

63 Goblin Rogue
4185
So I was wondering does anyone else feeling like Ardent Defenders CD is just a bit too long for its effect 20% reduced damage is nice but pallys and all other tanking class have that effect on a 1 min CD that lasts for 12 seconds. As for the 15% hp back right before you die is useful but i've yet to see it actually save anyone because the 15% isn't enough to be able to get a heal off. So 95% of the time i see pallys popping it when the're at nearly 100% hp just to use it for the 20% DR for 10 seconds rather then to save themselves from death so my proposal is to either lower the CD to 2min (which probably wont really effect the way its used) or preferably to me leave the CD at 3min and increase the percent of HP it return u to up 50% or somewhere in that area. sooo does anyone else have any suggestions for changes or do people think its good the way it is?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13415
50% is pretty much overpowered for a 3 minute cooldown. Anyway, we actually have our own 20% reduced damage ability in the form of Glyphed Divine Protection, which is nice when you don't anticipate magic damage being the end of you (and even then, still provides a nice bonus).

Ardent Defender's a bit of an oddball ability, mostly because back in its original iteration, it was borderline overpowered when it autoprocced, and right now it takes some foresight to use (which is a good thing, imo - keeps you planning ahead for big hits). We make up for its slight awkwardness with the fact that we have 4 beefy cooldowns to use during tight spots (LoH, DP, AD, and Guardian), as well as a fifth if we use WoG with 5 Bastions of Glory.

If anything, you can look at its "heal back to 15%" ability as something extra just in case you use it during low health, otherwise I don't mind using it for its 20% DR if everything else is down.
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90 Human Paladin
9970
It's our analog to abilities like Last Stand, and does its job reasonably well. It's not just a 15% heal, it prevents all the damage that would have killed you AND is a 15% heal. Depending on the size of the prevented hit, that's quite possibly better than Last Stand's +30% HP - without considering the 20% damage reduction at all.

I feel like the shortish duration can make it a bit hard to use properly sometimes, but I'm not sure that's even inappropriate for a spell that makes you immune to death.
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1 Tauren Shaman
0
It also counts separate hits that occur in the same second together, e.g. Thrash.

What I mean is, when the 5 hits of Dread Thrash come in the same millisecond, AD will prevent death from all 5 of those instead of just 1.
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90 Human Paladin
8235
This character is my original main, and was main spec Prot for 3+ years. It's now MS Ret. They really botched up Protection Paladin in MoP in my opinion, trying to shoehorn it into the DK active mitigation style. SoR/Bastion etc is annoying, unfun, and poorly thought out. But that's a different subject.

Ardent Defender is one of many cool and useful Paladin abilities from the past that they've nerfed into useless garbage. It is a constant theme with Paladins. If somebody here has actually managed to get the "rez" to proc more than a handful of times, you deserve a gold star.

It used to be an automatic effect on a CD. The first time you would have died on a given fight, you would auto-resurrect with 33% health. It made Paladins the best tanking class in the game by far, so every other tank class cried about it until it was destroyed. What we're left with is a meaningless ability.

Auras, Divine Intervention, Judgment of Light, Righteous Defense...the list of cool/unique/useful Paladin abilities/buffs arbitrarily disposed of by Blizzard is too long to count. Ret and Holy have improved, Prot has been screwed up and makes no sense, and the class as a whole has been homogenized down to nothing.
Edited by Rathlight on 2/16/2013 10:14 AM PST
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63 Goblin Rogue
4185
Huh these were not the responses i expected lol i guess im going to end my crusade to try and get the heal increased
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100 Human Paladin
13730
02/16/2013 10:13 AMPosted by Rathlight
It used to be an automatic effect on a CD. The first time you would have died on a given fight, you would auto-resurrect with 33% health. It made Paladins the best tanking class in the game by far, so every other tank class cried about it until it was destroyed. What we're left with is a meaningless ability.


I'm dreadfully sorry they changed your get out of jail free card to actually having to have some thought behind it, what terrible developers. How dare they make you think in a video game? How dare they attempt to bring some sort of balance between the tanking classes! Those dastardly rascals, I'll tweet Greg's ears off for this, you have my word!
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This character is my original main, and was main spec Prot for 3+ years. It's now MS Ret. They really botched up Protection Paladin in MoP in my opinion, trying to shoehorn it into the DK active mitigation style. SoR/Bastion etc is annoying, unfun, and poorly thought out. But that's a different subject.

I completely disagree. "Shoehorning" us into DK mitigation makes us interesting to play. Before, I would CTC cap / Stamina stack and just let the healers do most of the work. Now, I feel like I contribute more to my defenses than by simply slapping a cooldown on myself.

IMO this is the way it should've been years ago.
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63 Goblin Rogue
4185
It used to be an automatic effect on a CD. The first time you would have died on a given fight, you would auto-resurrect with 33% health. It made Paladins the best tanking class in the game by far, so every other tank class cried about it until it was destroyed. What we're left with is a meaningless ability.


I'm dreadfully sorry they changed your get out of jail free card to actually having to have some thought behind it, what terrible developers. How dare they make you think in a video game? How dare they attempt to bring some sort of balance between the tanking classes! Those dastardly rascals, I'll tweet Greg's ears off for this, you have my word!


This had nothing to do with a get out of jail free card out was simply that when I heal 15% does seem like enough time to get a heal cast. That generally I see most people use it for the DR and I was wonder if there was a wary to change it so its also used for the save and joined at the beginning of cata so I didn't even know it had been nerfed until rathlight brought it up and I was just if people felt the same way
Edited by Superstabby on 2/19/2013 10:36 AM PST
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90 Human Paladin
9970
02/19/2013 10:36 AMPosted by Superstabby
That generally I see most people use it for the DR and I was wonder if there was a wary to change it so its also used for the save

If they're in no danger of dying, why does it even matter how they're using their defensive cooldowns? *puzzled*

If you ARE in danger of dying, so that defensive cooldowns actually matter, AD is a pretty powerful one. Unlike most cooldowns, it actually guarantees your survival.
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90 Human Paladin
8235
02/19/2013 10:04 AMPosted by Bassm
This character is my original main, and was main spec Prot for 3+ years. It's now MS Ret. They really botched up Protection Paladin in MoP in my opinion, trying to shoehorn it into the DK active mitigation style. SoR/Bastion etc is annoying, unfun, and poorly thought out. But that's a different subject.

I completely disagree. "Shoehorning" us into DK mitigation makes us interesting to play. Before, I would CTC cap / Stamina stack and just let the healers do most of the work. Now, I feel like I contribute more to my defenses than by simply slapping a cooldown on myself.

IMO this is the way it should've been years ago.


Late response: I disagree. I think it's a lot more fun as a tank to be focused on maintaining aggro than it is to be focused on keeping yourself alive. That's what healers are for.

Anyway, I'm playing Ret now and I like it.
Edited by Rathlight on 3/7/2013 8:29 PM PST
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98 Blood Elf Rogue
16370
03/07/2013 08:28 PMPosted by Rathlight
Late response: I disagree. I think it's a lot more fun as a tank to be focused on maintaining aggro than it is to be focused on keeping yourself alive.
They tried that model in Cata, it did not work. Fighting with dps over threat is not fun. Threat is too binary, there are only 2 situations with threat: it's either trivial or it's frustrating, there is no in-between and rarely any warning when it switches.

Further threat doesn't even make sense to be a tank's concern. Think about it, what's a dps' job/concern? Doing damage. So what do they gear for? Doing damage. What's a healer's job/concern? Healing. So what do they gear for? Healing. What do tanks gear for? Survival. So what should their job/concern be? Survival. Heck the word "tank" itself even refers to their ability to survive hits, not their ability to generate threat. The problem was that while dps and healers not only geared for their jobs they also actively did their jobs during fights, while tanks geared for survival but all of their survivability was 100% passive. Active mitigation just makes sense because it lets us actually DO our job: survive.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13415
Late response: I disagree. I think it's a lot more fun as a tank to be focused on maintaining aggro than it is to be focused on keeping yourself alive. That's what healers are for.

Anyway, I'm playing Ret now and I like it.


At first, I found the system of not worrying about threat jarring, until I realized how much more control I had when tanking. While gear matters still, it's not as overly so as before MoP, and there's a sense of pride to be had when you get whispers from guildies saying "Wow, you're so much easier to heal than the other guy, and he's better geared than you are." The model makes a lot more sense to me, and I've finally found a PvE niche I genuinely love next to Ret.

Not to mention, it seems to make a lot more sense being the guy controlling how he takes hits, instead of shaking a giant stick in front of a dragon screaming "HIT ME! NOT THE ONE IN THE DRESS! HIT ME!."
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Late response: I disagree. I think it's a lot more fun as a tank to be focused on maintaining aggro than it is to be focused on keeping yourself alive. That's what healers are for.

Anyway, I'm playing Ret now and I like it.


At first, I found the system of not worrying about threat jarring, until I realized how much more control I had when tanking. While gear matters still, it's not as overly so as before MoP, and there's a sense of pride to be had when you get whispers from guildies saying "Wow, you're so much easier to heal than the other guy, and he's better geared than you are." The model makes a lot more sense to me, and I've finally found a PvE niche I genuinely love next to Ret.

Not to mention, it seems to make a lot more sense being the guy controlling how he takes hits, instead of shaking a giant stick in front of a dragon screaming "HIT ME! NOT THE ONE IN THE DRESS! HIT ME!."

That's primarily it.

It's always awesome to hear healers say "sometimes, I honestly forget you even exist", which I have heard often in raid environment. Sometimes LFR... but the only fight I seem to cringe at is Lei Shen - but that fight is a whole different beast for obvious reasons.
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90 Human Paladin
8235


At first, I found the system of not worrying about threat jarring, until I realized how much more control I had when tanking. While gear matters still, it's not as overly so as before MoP, and there's a sense of pride to be had when you get whispers from guildies saying "Wow, you're so much easier to heal than the other guy, and he's better geared than you are." The model makes a lot more sense to me, and I've finally found a PvE niche I genuinely love next to Ret.

Not to mention, it seems to make a lot more sense being the guy controlling how he takes hits, instead of shaking a giant stick in front of a dragon screaming "HIT ME! NOT THE ONE IN THE DRESS! HIT ME!."

That's primarily it.

It's always awesome to hear healers say "sometimes, I honestly forget you even exist", which I have heard often in raid environment. Sometimes LFR... but the only fight I seem to cringe at is Lei Shen - but that fight is a whole different beast for obvious reasons.


Well, let me walk back the statement a little bit. Active mitigation and self-healing could theoretically be ok for Paladins. I just find the way they did it to be extremely un-fun.

Encounter design probably has something to do with the changes they made too. They kept giving tanks nothing to do in the fights* outside of the "swap because of debuff" mechanic that ended up being in almost every fight.

*This is probably the main reason I quit tanking, although there are many. Tanks get nothing but crap from other players, despite the fact that you're the one who has to know every detail of the fight, and you're holding it all together. But if you put up big numbers on Recount, everybody is in awe. The increased health pools and general nerfing of dungeons makes it so everybody just pulls and is no danger of dying. Their whole design philosophy about tanking has been moving in a direction I don't like for a long time now, and I don't like what they've done specifically with Prot Paladin, either.
Edited by Rathlight on 3/8/2013 3:12 PM PST
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