Monk Healers, Getting Nerfed Again.

100 Pandaren Monk
16575
Why do you insist on nerfing us three times in a row blizzard? First you made some changes to our core heals in 5.1, then in a hotfix shortly after 5.1's release you nerf our Renewing Mist. Now, in 5.2, you are nerfing several of our heals again, and here is what I am talking about exactly.

Chi Wave now does 100% more damage, but its healing reduced by 14%, and no longer costs Chi, but now has a 15 second cooldown.
Jab now costs 6% (was 4%) of base mana to use.
Glyphed Uplift now costs 8% (was 6.6%) of base mana.

I get that we have 45k more mana than all other healing classes, but increasing our mana costs on everything, and in some cases reducing it's healing done as well, is pointless when our renewing mist costs 19.5k mana... and now Uplift will cost quite a bit too if you have the glyph.

What I am seeing here, is you don't really want us to fistweave (increasing mana costs + also reducing mana we recieve back), you don't want us to use Glyph of Uplift anymore because you are making it cost even more mana (must remember to add renewing mist to that), And the level 30 Tier Talents are a joke.

I am about to just go Brewmaster, seriously getting tired of this.
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100 Pandaren Monk
8320
Glyph of Uplift will now be quite a bit cheaper than Jab Jab Uplift, guess they want us to use it. Feels very weird that a nerfed glyph that no one took anyway is now the cheapest way to aoe heal effectively.
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100 Pandaren Monk
3025
I'm seriously contemplating dropping Mistweaver as well and focusing solely on Brewmaster, and healing on my old main (Priest). I really enjoy this class but I don't believe it will be able to perform effectively for progression fights in 5.2. I've not been able to get onto the PTR and test this though so I'm holding out hope that I'm wrong, but I'm hedging my bets just in case.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
02/19/2013 10:24 AMPosted by Gyiatso
Glyph of Uplift will now be quite a bit cheaper than Jab Jab Uplift, guess they want us to use it. Feels very weird that a nerfed glyph that no one took anyway is now the cheapest way to aoe heal effectively.


I guess Glyph of Uplift will be for Fistweavers only because with the change to the T30 talents without Uplift as a Chi dump what's left for Monks at range? Enveloping? Very odd design decisions going on.

It seems like the change to the T30 talents was made without any thought to the impact for Mistweavers. I get the need to make them more attractive for the other specs but didn't GC say they were never meant to be rotational for Brewmasters or Windwalkers back when MoP was released? Removing the Chi cost and putting them on CD seems to place them in the rotational category now doesn't it?

How about a Glyph for Chi Burst that returns the spell to the Live version for Mistweavers? Or better yet keep the Live version of Chi Burst and Chi Wave and make a Glyph for the other specs that acts like the PTR versions.

If the issue is too much healing from Talents that are "free" why isn't there an issue with Healing Tide for the same reason?

Monks are slowly becoming the same as the other healers in terms of mechanics. Instead of multiple ways to heal with multiple viable spells they're turning into Healers with a Green version of Holy Power without the Utility.
Edited by Indyana on 2/19/2013 11:05 AM PST
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100 Pandaren Monk
8320
02/19/2013 11:02 AMPosted by Indyana
Glyph of Uplift will now be quite a bit cheaper than Jab Jab Uplift, guess they want us to use it. Feels very weird that a nerfed glyph that no one took anyway is now the cheapest way to aoe heal effectively.


I guess Glyph of Uplift will be for Fistweavers only .


Yep, on live Jab Jab Uplift costs 18k mana and returns half a stack of mana tea, Glyph of Uplift in 5.2 will cost 24k and provide no mana tea. A nerf, but not as severe as the 100% nerf to Jab. An option for fistweavers who still want to zealweave, like myself...the extra spirit on 5.2 gear should help mitigate the mana nerfs.
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100 Blood Elf Monk
17985
02/19/2013 10:20 AMPosted by Verasia
I get that we have 45k more mana than all other healing classes


That's only if you use Ascension, which is frankly the worst talent choice on that whole tier. I can't fathom why anyone would bother taking it.
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90 Human Paladin
3845
On the Chinese PTR notes, it said that the 150% damage ability (forgot what it's called) grants 2% mana return with your next tiger palm or blackout kick.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
It's a new class to the game that they are still trying to find the right balance for. How can you not expect this? Were you not around for the introduction of DK's or something?
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100 Blood Elf Monk
17985
We're all expecting them to change the class. What we weren't expecting was such a radical design shift away from "a class with two different specific playstyles" to "mediocre resto druids with atonement."

Nobody should be surprised by the changes, but nobody needs to just sit down and take it. Nothing gets done by being quiet and hoping someone reads your mind.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
02/19/2013 01:13 PMPosted by Mist
Nobody should be surprised by the changes, but nobody needs to just sit down and take it. Nothing gets done by being quiet and hoping someone reads your mind.


And that is the correct way to put it as opposed to "quitting on the spec".
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100 Human Monk
16910
02/19/2013 12:15 PMPosted by Mist
That's only if you use Ascension, which is frankly the worst talent choice on that whole tier. I can't fathom why anyone would bother taking it.


This is kind of off topic to the discussion at hand, but I thought I'd respond to this anyway.

I run Ascension most of the time, unless there's a fight that I need the burst healing from chi brew (which at this point, with everything on farm, is never). I find power strikes to be too clunky to really want to use it. It seems the buff that it applies is done every 20 seconds regardless of if you've consumed the last one or not. Which is great since as long as you jab/CJL/soothing at least once every 20 seconds you're guaranteed 3 chi a minute from it, but it makes it difficult to track the ICD. There's probably an addon to handle it, and I can think of a way to (probably) do it if I coded it myself, but it's still not as straightforward as I'd like.

But my other issue with it is the wording on it. "If you are already at maximum Chi, a Chi sphere will be summoned near you." Well, that's great. Except what if I jab when I'm at 3 chi? Oh, it wastes the buff. I'm sitting at 4 chi without a sphere. I can only imagine the same applies if I CJL or soothing mist and get a chi proc on the first tick as well, but those are much harder to test. So in order to not waste the talent, I need to go ahead and spend at least 1 chi first. And let's not forget that if you walk onto that chi sphere while at full chi (say while dodging a ground effect under you) it consumes it.

Ascension isn't an amazing talent, but at this point in the tier it's one less thing that I have to think about. Mana tea scales with it, I get a slight cushion with the extra chi slot in the event that soothing mists actually grants me chi at a reasonable rate, I'm never at risk of wasting it, and there are no situations at this point where I actually need the burst healing from chi brew.
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100 Blood Elf Monk
17985
There is an in game buff that tracks PS. Additionally, counting out 20s in your head is not at all hard at all ever. If you're playing the way you should be, you will never waste this chi, ever.

There is no actual argument for the usage of Ascension other than being completely lazy and not understanding how amazing extra, free chi is. Or just not knowing how the class works. Power Strike wins out in literally every situation. Every. Single. Situation.

There is no excuse for not using it. It isn't clunky. I'm starting to think people don't even know what the word means.
Edited by Mist on 2/19/2013 2:57 PM PST
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90 Worgen Druid
12130
Chi wave doesn't cost chi? I don't know or care about the buffs/nerfs, but you'd think chi wave should cost chi.
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100 Blood Elf Monk
17985
They changed the entirety of our T30 spells to no longer cost chi. Killed our ranged chi dumps, basically.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11480

There is no excuse for not using it. It isn't clunky. I'm starting to think people don't even know what the word means.


I just like having Chi Brew just because if I can time having 10-14 ReM's out, I can Uplift 4 times pretty quickly if I do it right (50/50 that actually happens).

But with the change to the mana cost, I can see using PS now for sure.
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100 Human Monk
16910
I'm aware there's an in-game buff that tracks it. What confused me when I tried it out was why that buff would sometimes suddenly reappear 5 seconds after I used one of the chi generators tied to it. Then I realized how it actually worked, and like I said, it's actually good that it does work that way. It means you don't have to use one of the abilities the moment the buff appears. But the fact that it can waste chi makes it an inferior choice to me. And yes, it CAN waste it. Big damage phase coming up. I want to pool 4 chi for uplifts. I'm at 3 chi, jab once more for the 4th... right as the buff goes up. Boom, wasted. Unless I'm supposed to wait and blow a GCD jabbing again during whatever aoe I'm trying to heal off so I can uplift without wasting that chi? If they just changed it so the wording was "If this would cause you to gain more than your maximum Chi, a Chi sphere will be summoned near you instead." then it would be perfectly fine.

I'd always take chi brew over power strikes at this point, and I pretty much said in my post that I am being lazy (the whole "at this point in the tier..." spiel) and making it so I had one less thing to think about by using it. Since I don't need chi brew anymore this tier, ascension is what I use.
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100 Blood Elf Monk
17985
There aren't any real situations save for pre-nerf heroic vizier where 4 back to back uplifts were required.

PS has been the best since they added it to CJL \ SM.

02/19/2013 03:09 PMPosted by Emerya
And yes, it CAN waste it. Big damage phase coming up. I want to pool 4 chi for uplifts. I'm at 3 chi, jab once more for the 4th... right as the buff goes up. Boom, wasted


Sounds like an issue of playerskill to me. You should never be pooling chi, not if you have timers. Not with how fast we can generate with jab. Pooling chi is an absurd notion in almost every case. I cannot even begin to fathom a situation where I would want to pool any chi. Even Vizier, as mentioned, you play your timers right and you never have to stop spending chi.

Additionally, logic dictates that if you're at 4 chi and have PS, you're going to spend the chi before you generate more chi. I'm still not understanding your problem with PS, because it doesn't make much sense.
Edited by Mist on 2/19/2013 3:13 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/19/2013 03:09 PMPosted by Emerya
I'm aware there's an in-game buff that tracks it. What confused me when I tried it out was why that buff would sometimes suddenly reappear 5 seconds after I used one of the chi generators tied to it. Then I realized how it actually worked, and like I said, it's actually good that it does work that way. It means you don't have to use one of the abilities the moment the buff appears. But the fact that it can waste chi makes it an inferior choice to me. And yes, it CAN waste it. Big damage phase coming up. I want to pool 4 chi for uplifts. I'm at 3 chi, jab once more for the 4th... right as the buff goes up. Boom, wasted.


Er...well...you know that the extra chi you create will become a little chi bubble you can pick up directly after spending the chi you had, yeah?
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100 Blood Elf Monk
17985
02/19/2013 03:17 PMPosted by Tiriél
Er...well...you know that the extra chi you create will become a little chi bubble you can pick up directly after spending the chi you had, yeah?


It'll only be wasted if he's still pooling his chi, which I still don't get why he'd ever do that.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/19/2013 03:18 PMPosted by Mist
Er...well...you know that the extra chi you create will become a little chi bubble you can pick up directly after spending the chi you had, yeah?


It'll only be wasted if he's still pooling his chi, which I still don't get why he'd ever do that.


Well, not unless he picks it up when he still has chi. But yes, I don't understand why you'd want to perpetually have 4 chi when you should be spending it to create more mana tea (and, you know, do healing things).
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