Monk Healers, Getting Nerfed Again.

90 Pandaren Monk
11480
Maybe I'll give PS a shot next time I raid and see if I like it.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/19/2013 03:19 PMPosted by Kuruptionz
Maybe I'll give PS a shot next time I raid and see if I like it.


I wasn't sure about it, but Mist bullied me until I gave it a shot. It's really fun! The extra chi is just like a really nice bonus. :)
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
02/19/2013 03:03 PMPosted by Mist
They changed the entirety of our T30 spells to no longer cost chi. Killed our ranged chi dumps, basically.


They killed a lot of fun as well. Hadouken healing was a blast. Viscerally such a great spell.

The whole change is at odds with everything the devs said about the T30 talents in beta. Wasn't the point that the "fun" stuff will get used more by Brewmasters as their gear improves. Stuff like Breath of Fire and the T30 stuff. The T30 was never meant to be used rotationally and now this change means they HAVE to be used that way for the DPS increase.

Plus what's the deal with the healing nerfs on top of it all? It's not like there isn't a precedent already in game with something like Healing Tide.
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100 Human Monk
16190
I'm quite confident there's nothing wrong with my skill as a healer. Perhaps this comes down to a 10 vs 25 playstyle thing, or just different healing styles in general. I'm not trying to argue that I'm always sitting around at 4 chi. Usually I'm between 0 to 1 because yes, I am spending it. But I also like to be able to drop a double uplift immediately following a massive aoe (such as empress field explosions) without having to take the time to generate an extra chi in-between. Since I can get full raid coverage with TFT, that ability to pool chi may give me one extra uplift before the ReMs start to fall off and lighten the load on my co-healer just a little bit. Obviously that's not something that happens in 25s.

Hell, I'm not even arguing that PS is always wasted. 90% of the time it's probably not going to be. I presented an edge case that happens occasionally but it's enough to make me not want to bother with it in a tier that's over with. My suggestion was really just a QoL change to guarantee that it actually is never wasted.
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100 Undead Monk
17265
"It happens once every blue moon and only if I play poorly, and even though it's better than everything else in literally 99% of situations, I'd prefer going with the inferior talent."

I mean that's essentially what you're saying. The only thing that needs to be fixed is what appears to be a bug, which is consuming it when you're already at full chi. That isn't supposed to work like that.

There's essentially, as I said before, no excuse for using anything over PS.
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100 Human Monk
16190
If that's how you want to take it, sure. I pretty much said in my first post that I was being lazy with my decision. I pointed out how my particular playstyle with regards to certain incoming burst damage situations could result in the talent being wasted. Anyway, I honestly don't see why you're apparently arguing that it's okay that it gets wasted if you're at 3 chi because you yourself are never, ever above 2 chi. Again, QoL change. Considering it's chi that you're supposed to get anyway by virtue of having the talent, I don't think it's particularly gamebreaking if it was changed to drop the sphere in that case.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/19/2013 03:55 PMPosted by Emerya
If that's how you want to take it, sure. I pretty much said in my first post that I was being lazy with my decision. I pointed out how my particular playstyle with regards to certain incoming burst damage situations could result in the talent being wasted. Anyway, I honestly don't see why you're apparently arguing that it's okay that it gets wasted if you're at 3 chi because you yourself are never, ever above 2 chi. Again, QoL change. Considering it's chi that you're supposed to get anyway by virtue of having the talent, I don't think it's particularly gamebreaking if it was changed to drop the sphere in that case.


But you don't understand that it doesn't get wasted. Any excess chi you produce becomes an orb at your feet that you just have to step over to pick up after you've spent the other chi.
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100 Human Monk
16190
But you don't understand that it doesn't get wasted. Any excess chi you produce becomes an orb at your feet that you just have to step over to pick up after you've spent the other chi.


You don't understand the situation I'm talking about. If you're at 3 chi, the power strikes buff is on you, and you jab, you go to 4 chi. There is no orb spawned because you weren't at "maximum chi" when you used jab. But the power strikes buff goes away because it's still consumed.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/19/2013 04:00 PMPosted by Emerya
But you don't understand that it doesn't get wasted. Any excess chi you produce becomes an orb at your feet that you just have to step over to pick up after you've spent the other chi.


You don't understand the situation I'm talking about. If you're at 3 chi, the power strikes buff is on you, and you jab, you go to 4 chi. There is no orb spawned because you weren't at "maximum chi" when you used jab. But the power strikes buff goes away because it's still consumed.


Oh. Heh. You're right.

Why aren't you tracking it, tho? I mean, if you know it's about to re-apply, why wouldn't you just spend that extra chi so you wouldn't have that happen, if it's that big of a deal?
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100 Human Monk
16190
Like I said in my first post, there's probably an addon that makes tracking it easy. I can't see how to do it with weak auras or tellmewhen without having to actually write some LUA code myself because it's essentially pulsing every 20 seconds behind the scenes to decide when to reapply it. So you'd need to catch one of these pulses to know the timer to work off of. Without an addon to track it, if I'm not using one of the chi generators immediately after gaining the buff, the timing starts to slip. (i.e. if it lines up with uplift -> ReM -> expel harm -> uplift, then I'm still within the 20 second window to gain my chi by using jab, but now it's ~15 seconds until I regain PS, not 20.)

Again, that's a positive thing in terms of the value of the talent. Use one of the chi generators within a 20 second window, you don't waste it. It just means you basically need some addon tracking it though, unless you really want to count off 20 seconds every time you see that buff pop up. In the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter. Obviously it matters enough to annoy me, but clearly no one else. A potential one wasted chi every few minutes/pulls is the most likely outcome of it. But if they just made it so you gained the chi you would naturally gain from jab/CJL/SoM first, then applied the talent so the excess would turn into the sphere, then it would totally remove the need to track it at all. It would be 100% passive with never a fear of wasting it. Instead I think we're gaining the PS chi first, then the ability sees we're capped and the chi we'd gain from it goes out the window.
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90 Pandaren Monk
7915
Regarding Chi Brew vs PS, they mathout similar theoretically, so it comes down to preference? If CB lines up with heavy damage, then it's fantastic, but if it doesn't, then what? And if you don't use it on cd, then it becomes less efficient compared to PS. That's my issue with it, anyway.
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90 Gnome Monk
7430
02/19/2013 03:59 PMPosted by Tiriél
But you don't understand that it doesn't get wasted. Any excess chi you produce becomes an orb at your feet that you just have to step over to pick up after you've spent the other chi.


Which can easily still get wasted if you have to move at the wrong time due to some fight mechanic or other. The chi orbs will get eaten even if you are at maximum chi if you step on them.
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80 Human Priest
3225
Well Power Strike isn't better in every situation. Maybe in PvE but in PvP it's one of the worst options.

Ascension is the best option by far in PvP followed by Tiger Brew. My MW pvp monk is gnome and having almost 370 mana using the 2% meta gem is fantastic for pvp. Especially on top of getting almost 30,000 mana back per 2 stacks of mana tea which is 6000 more then non-gnome monks not running ascension or 2% meta.
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90 Pandaren Monk
3605


I guess Glyph of Uplift will be for Fistweavers only .


Yep, on live Jab Jab Uplift costs 18k mana and returns half a stack of mana tea, Glyph of Uplift in 5.2 will cost 24k and provide no mana tea. A nerf, but not as severe as the 100% nerf to Jab. An option for fistweavers who still want to zealweave, like myself...the extra spirit on 5.2 gear should help mitigate the mana nerfs.


2 jabs actually costs 36,000 mana when used on uplift. (18000 mana per jab). 29100 if you count the return from the half stack of mana tea. Compare that insane cost to some other aoe heal abilities in the game, which typically heal up to 5 or 6 before dropping off. Uplift only heals as many as RM is on (pretty short window where you've got RM on enough people that upllift would affect 6 without TfT by the time it makes the two bounces from the two RM casts).

And i'm unfamiliar with a 100% nerf to jab... what are you referring to here? (possibly the total mana increase from 9000 on mop release to the current 18000?)

There is an in game buff that tracks PS. Additionally, counting out 20s in your head is not at all hard at all ever. If you're playing the way you should be, you will never waste this chi, ever.

There is no actual argument for the usage of Ascension other than being completely lazy and not understanding how amazing extra, free chi is. Or just not knowing how the class works. Power Strike wins out in literally every situation. Every. Single. Situation.

There is no excuse for not using it. It isn't clunky. I'm starting to think people don't even know what the word means.


just wow lol. Have you considered that 15% extra mana pool also means 15% more return on mana tea or muscle memory mana returns? It's not a matter of being completely lazy, it's a matter of preference. Storing an extra chi when soothing mists decides to generate alot of chi (something that's usually wasted with power strikes), starting a fight with 45k more mana, and getting 15% more out of mana generation abilities. Both talents have their upsides, and neither is a poor choice.
Edited by Theoldpanda on 2/24/2013 8:08 PM PST
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100 Pandaren Monk
10410
Now is 24k mana per Jab in PTR, not 18k (Bliz din release the patch note yet)
So jab jab uplift cost 48k mana.
2 uplift + mana tea = 96k - 4k = 92k mana = 30% mana!!!

Thus spam JJU = OOM very very very very very very very fast.
No Jab = no instant chi = no fast aoe heal = carried by other class healers esp in 10 man raid.

If use SCK to get chi for uplift, 2 SCK need about 5 seconds = slow AOE heal as SCK heal very little only (about 7k HPS).

If use soothing mist to get 2 chi, it need about 4 to 6 sec. Normally 8 sec channel of soothing mist get only 3 to 4 chi only, sometime get 1 chi in 8 sec ! = very slow AOE heal.

Now our AOE heal must get 4 chi b4 AOE damage. When AOE damage come, uplift x 2, chi torpedo x 3, chi burst, chi brew, uplift x 2, RM, EH, uplift.
Edited by Xiongxiong on 2/24/2013 8:26 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
3605
Now is 24k mana per Jab in PTR, not 18k (Bliz din release the patch note yet)
So jab jab uplift cost 48k mana.
2 uplift + mana tea = 96k - 4k = 92k mana = 30% mana!!!


whut? ouch. lol

haven't been on ptr in a day or two.. wouldn't suprise me if they've changed it though. Wonder if they've also done the 4% return with muscle memory...

edit: they have upped the mana part of muscle memory to 4% but still makes for 48000 mana uplift and 72000 mana enveloping mist
Edited by Theoldpanda on 2/25/2013 8:15 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
3605
Like I said in my first post, there's probably an addon that makes tracking it easy. I can't see how to do it with weak auras or tellmewhen without having to actually write some LUA code myself because it's essentially pulsing every 20 seconds behind the scenes to decide when to reapply it. So you'd need to catch one of these pulses to know the timer to work off of. Without an addon to track it, if I'm not using one of the chi generators immediately after gaining the buff, the timing starts to slip. (i.e. if it lines up with uplift -> ReM -> expel harm -> uplift, then I'm still within the 20 second window to gain my chi by using jab, but now it's ~15 seconds until I regain PS, not 20.)

Again, that's a positive thing in terms of the value of the talent. Use one of the chi generators within a 20 second window, you don't waste it. It just means you basically need some addon tracking it though, unless you really want to count off 20 seconds every time you see that buff pop up. In the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter. Obviously it matters enough to annoy me, but clearly no one else. A potential one wasted chi every few minutes/pulls is the most likely outcome of it. But if they just made it so you gained the chi you would naturally gain from jab/CJL/SoM first, then applied the talent so the excess would turn into the sphere, then it would totally remove the need to track it at all. It would be 100% passive with never a fear of wasting it. Instead I think we're gaining the PS chi first, then the ability sees we're capped and the chi we'd gain from it goes out the window.


There's a brewmaster tao addon on wowinterface (i think is where i got it), and it has a stagger meter as well as a power strikes timer that works correctly if you let 20-30 seconds pass after picking the talent (i usually use ascension in brew or mist, so have to wait for PS CD before that timer'll work properly). But idk if it works with SM/CJL power strikes triggers...
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100 Pandaren Monk
10410
The only way for MW to fistweave is jab and TP to get tiger power buff, and use chi from RM and EH to BoK to get serpent zeal buff.

Jab TP + Jab Jab BoK + Jab Jab BoK + mana tea = 8% x 5 - 4% x 3 - 4% = 24% mana to maintain 2 stacks of serpent zeal buff and tiger power buff!!! Too expensive!

Jab TP + RM EH BoK + Jab Jab BoK + mana tea = 8% - 4% + 8% x 2 - 4% - 4% = 12% mana, also expensive.
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100 Pandaren Monk
18825
The only way for MW to fistweave is jab and TP to get tiger power buff, and use chi from RM and EH to BoK to get serpent zeal buff.
Jab TP + Jab Jab BoK + Jab Jab BoK + mana tea = 8% x 5 - 4% x 3 - 4% = 24% mana to maintain 2 stacks of serpent zeal buff and tiger power buff!!! Too expensive!

Jab TP + RM EH BoK + Jab Jab BoK + mana tea = 8% - 4% + 8% x 2 - 4% - 4% = 12% mana, also expensive.


Don't forget Serpent Zeal won't stack in 5.2
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90 Pandaren Monk
3605
Now is 24k mana per Jab in PTR, not 18k (Bliz din release the patch note yet)
So jab jab uplift cost 48k mana.
2 uplift + mana tea = 96k - 4k = 92k mana = 30% mana!!!

Thus spam JJU = OOM very very very very very very very fast.
No Jab = no instant chi = no fast aoe heal = carried by other class healers esp in 10 man raid.

If use SCK to get chi for uplift, 2 SCK need about 5 seconds = slow AOE heal as SCK heal very little only (about 7k HPS).

If use soothing mist to get 2 chi, it need about 4 to 6 sec. Normally 8 sec channel of soothing mist get only 3 to 4 chi only, sometime get 1 chi in 8 sec ! = very slow AOE heal.

Now our AOE heal must get 4 chi b4 AOE damage. When AOE damage come, uplift x 2, chi torpedo x 3, chi burst, chi brew, uplift x 2, RM, EH, uplift.


Could also save up chi from free surging mists but that takes a while of saving up a bar of chi that way.

Can't say i know any other heal spec in the game that has to save up for a long time before aoe dmg to be able to use an aoe heal ability lol. Even Hpally that's sorta the closest in regards to a similar alternate energy resource can go: holy radiance, holy shock, holy radiance, light of dawn. No saving up an alternate resource for a while before being able to do that.
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