To the Complainers about 5.2 Chi Wave (MW)

100 Gnome Monk
10825
So, as we all know, a lot of people are very unhappy with the chi wave change on the PTR. For those of you that didn't hear, it got cut to 16% less than live, but was left with a 15 second cooldown and no chi cost. I've even seen some mistweaver monks go so far as to claim it wouldn't be worth the GCD to cast. I won't mention any names, but you know who you are. These people were talking about PvE and PvP.

Now I'd like to draw a comparison for you. Most healers, even if they don't play other healer classes, are at least familiar with how they work. Shamans work with totems. In PvE, one of their top heals, and indeed one of the smartest smart heals in the game, is healing stream totem. For those of you who don't play shamans, this is a totem that lasts for 15 seconds, and has a 30 second cooldown. It costs right around 14k mana to drop, but if you glyph totemic recall, you can recall it at the 14th second, and regain that mana, so it's completely free, except for one extra GCD. All good shamans do this in PvE. In PvP, sometimes it isn't worth the GCD to recall it, as there tends to be more "panic" healing in PvP. However, even in PvP, this is one of the shaman's best tools.

For my shaman (471 iLevel) HST ticks for about 26k, unbuffed. So, for its 30 second duration, I get 8 ticks of HST, or 208k healing. It's a very strong spell.

I think most of you can already see where I'm going with this. Chi wave in 5.2 will work almost identically to HST. HST gives 8 ticks per 30 seconds, chi wave gives 8 ticks per 30 seconds. In nearly the same gear on both characters, HST ticks for about 26k, chi wave ticks for about 27k. When managed properly, HST is completely free healing. Chi wave is also completely free healing. Over 30 seconds, HST requires 2 GCDs. (One to place, one to destroy.) Over 30 seconds, chi wave, yes you guessed it, requires 2 GCDs.

There are two differences between them. HST has no travel time, which makes it a smarter heal that is less likely to overheal. If chi wave is bouncing its maximum distance, it can be a bit dumb for a smart heal. However, it is still a smart heal, and most of the time it has sufficient intelligence to heal the right people. It really doesn't overheal much more than HST. And HST doesn't do damage. Ours does.

So before you complain about how crappy chi wave is, and how it isn't worth the GCD, first go tell the shamans that it's a waste of two GCDs to use HST. I have a funny feeling they will laugh at you.

Then go tell the other healing classes that we're losing a spell that was only marginally better than uplift in some circumstances, and in trade we're getting healing stream totem. I bet they'll tell you to go !@#$ yourself.

Put things in perspective.
Reply Quote
Sorry. Starting an argument with an insult does not invite reasonable discussion.
Reply Quote
100 Gnome Monk
10825
Sorry. Starting an argument with an insult does not invite reasonable discussion.


Just to be clear, this

I've even seen some mistweaver monks go so far as to claim it wouldn't be worth the GCD to cast. I won't mention any names, but you know who you are.


Is your idea of an insult? Because that is me doing this the polite way. I'm refraining from calling people out by name, because that might not be appreciated. I'd rather simply state that some people do feel that way, and I think they are wrong.

I honestly don't see how you find that to be insulting, and I don't see how I could properly make my point without stating that some people have the opposite viewpoint. If everyone agreed with me, there would be no point to make.

I'm confused now. You have an unusual concept of what an insult is. Sorry. Was that insulting?
Edited by Elstarin on 2/21/2013 10:26 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Monk
9940
lol@OP saying wave is fine because it's as good as HST. Using your logic shouldn't we have the same mana mechanics as a resto shaman? Shouldn't we have tremor totem on a 1-min cd? Shouldn't we have purge?

My point is...saying wave is comparable to HST is ridiculous considering that's baseline for a shaman and we're spending a talent on it, not to mention there's a multitude of other factors that come into play. You can't look at skill A from one class and say because it's as good as skill B from another class that makes it fine.
Edited by Gnomgnamstyl on 2/21/2013 10:36 AM PST
Reply Quote
80 Human Priest
3225
This post is pure insanity...

Also HST doesn't randomly break CC.

Chi-Wave especially in 3v3 isn't always available for use because of it's ability to break CC. None of the 30 talents are good for MW for pvp. Zen Sphere might have had a chance but now the explode was increased to 40yrds. So it will also break CC.. Chi-Burst is nothing short of terrible, and Chi-Wave is also horrible and like I said breaks CC.

We really do not have a good choice to pickup on that tier and the abilities will go mostly unused in arena anyway because they are extremely weak, and break CC.
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Monk
9940
This post is pure insanity...

Also HST doesn't randomly break CC.

Chi-Wave especially in 3v3 isn't always available for use because of it's ability to break CC. None of the 30 talents are good for MW for pvp. Zen Sphere might have had a chance but now the explode was increased to 40yrds. So it will also break CC.. Chi-Burst is nothing short of terrible, and Chi-Wave is also horrible and like I said breaks CC.

We really do not have a good choice to pickup on that tier and the abilities will go mostly unused in arena anyway because they are extremely weak, and break CC.

Can you link me where it shows zen sphere having a 40 yard explode? I don't recall ever seeing that.
Reply Quote
100 Gnome Monk
10825
lol@OP saying wave is fine because it's as good as HST. Using your logic shouldn't we have the same mana mechanics as a resto shaman? Shouldn't we have tremor totem on a 1-min cd?

My point is...saying wave is comparable to HST is ridiculous considering that's baseline for a shaman and we're spending a talent on it, not to mention there's a multitude of other factors that come into play. You can't look at skill A from one class and say because it's as good as skill B from another class that makes it fine.


Uhh, no. I'm not saying monks and shamans are the same thing. No one is saying monks and shamans are or should be the same thing. How you got that from my post is amazing to me. I'm saying, everyone knows that HST is a STRONG ability! It is undoubtedly strong. It is fantastic. Other classes are jealous of it. You hit it, you forget about it for 15 seconds and it does great heals. Suggest to a shaman that HST gets removed. They might try to murder you. It's powerful.

And, as should have been very, very obvious, I am saying that monks are getting an ability of almost identical power in 5.2. And they are complaining about it!

As to HST being baseline and chi wave being a talent, well, that is a sorry excuse for an argument. Glyphed mana tea is not baseline, and yet finding a mistweaver without it is quite rare. Why? It's better. In 5.1, arguments can, and have, been made for chi burst being the talent of choice. And yet nearly every monk has chi wave. In 5.2, again, pretty much every monk will have chi wave. It may not be baseline, but when 99 out of 100 mistweaver monks has it, I think it's fair to call it part of the class. Besides, are you going to complain that mistweavers are bad and intentionally take weaker talents? That would be extremely foolish. Are you going to do a fight with a heavy magic damage spike with dampen harm, and complain that you died? You should have had diffuse magic. It was better for that situation. It would have been your fault, just like it would be your fault if your heals are significantly worse in 5.2, because you ignore an extremely strong ability. (Chi wave, if you weren't following.)
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Monk
9940
lol@OP saying wave is fine because it's as good as HST. Using your logic shouldn't we have the same mana mechanics as a resto shaman? Shouldn't we have tremor totem on a 1-min cd?

My point is...saying wave is comparable to HST is ridiculous considering that's baseline for a shaman and we're spending a talent on it, not to mention there's a multitude of other factors that come into play. You can't look at skill A from one class and say because it's as good as skill B from another class that makes it fine.


Uhh, no. I'm not saying monks and shamans are the same thing. No one is saying monks and shamans are or should be the same thing. How you got that from my post is amazing to me. I'm saying, everyone knows that HST is a STRONG ability! It is undoubtedly strong. It is fantastic. Other classes are jealous of it. You hit it, you forget about it for 15 seconds and it does great heals. Suggest to a shaman that HST gets removed. They might try to murder you. It's powerful.

And, as should have been very, very obvious, I am saying that monks are getting an ability of almost identical power in 5.2. And they are complaining about it!

As to HST being baseline and chi wave being a talent, well, that is a sorry excuse for an argument. Glyphed mana tea is not baseline, and yet finding a mistweaver without it is quite rare. Why? It's better. In 5.1, arguments can, and have, been made for chi burst being the talent of choice. And yet nearly every monk has chi wave. In 5.2, again, pretty much every monk will have chi wave. It may not be baseline, but when 99 out of 100 mistweaver monks has it, I think it's fair to call it part of the class. Besides, are you going to complain that mistweavers are bad and intentionally take weaker talents? That would be extremely foolish. Are you going to do a fight with a heavy magic damage spike with dampen harm, and complain that you died? You should have had diffuse magic. It was better for that situation. It would have been your fault, just like it would be your fault if your heals are significantly worse in 5.2, because you ignore an extremely strong ability. (Chi wave, if you weren't following.)

Saying ability A of one class is = ability B of another class thus it's fine...is opening up the door for saying why doesn't class A have what class B has in other abilities. You're the one who went there. Just because wave is the same healing as HST doesn't mean it's fine. And I'm not even saying there's a problem with current PTR wave, but your argument is terrible.
Reply Quote
100 Gnome Monk
10825
Saying ability A of one class is = ability B of another class thus it's fine...is opening up the door for saying why doesn't class A have what class B has in other abilities. You're the one who went there. Just because wave is the same healing as HST doesn't mean it's fine. And I'm not even saying there's a problem with current PTR wave, but your argument is terrible.


All you're doing is repeating "it doesn't work, it doesn't work!"

It does, because this is a single change to a single class. It is a way to gauge what can be expected of chi wave, come 5.2, because the spells are so incredibly similar. Look at WoL. Look at any restoration shaman you know. HST will always be in their top 5, usually in their top 3. I can't think of any time it hasn't been in my top 3. Chi wave will work almost exactly the same as that, and yet so many people try to insist that this is a crushing nerf to the ability. It's absurd. They are over reacting to a ridiculous degree.

Besides, you're acting like it's literally impossible to compare classes, and anyone who tries is stupid. Well, how about this? Discipline priests are a more powerful healer than restoration druids in PvE. So, either you can challenge me on that, or you can accept that you can in fact make comparisons. If you accept that, then apparently we are completely on the same page, because we both seem to think chi wave in 5.2 will be good.
Edited by Elstarin on 2/21/2013 11:18 AM PST
Reply Quote
56 Pandaren Monk
6155
I propose the following to replace 1 of the 3 lvl 30 talents:

Chi Bang: 30 sec cooldown
The Monk hurls a keg at the targeted location. Upon impact, William Hung emerges singing his horrendous rendition of "She Bangs" causing severe auditory damage to all enemies within 30 yards and silencing them for 1 min.

Friendly targets within 40 yards instantly commit suicide, eliminating the need for further healing. Upon resurrection, a record deal will ensue.

Hey....its almost as practical as Zen Spheres :)
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
7160
It isn't just the healing nerf people do not like about Chi Wave, it is the removal of the Chi cost that sucks. Now we have one less ability to gain mana tea stacks with both in and outside of PVP. It isn't all that bad of a change but doubling the cooldown and then nerfing the amount it heals for is like being punched in the face.
Reply Quote
100 Pandaren Monk
13205
How do you think a single target heal that has travel time and only picks ONE target to travel to is the same as a totem that per tick is a smart heal? MAYBE if chi wave bounced like renewing mists spread then you could argue. But by the time chi wave makes it to someone 20 yards out, usually that person is healed, either by a quick heal or the raids smart heals. And by the time it makes it back to the enemy target and then finds a new target, the whole raid is usually topped off. If healing tide totem and chi wave heal for the same, then healing tide wins. You didnt spend a talent point on it and its smart heal will be more effectively used.

People are happy about baseline, not because they hate to pick what everyone else picks, but because it opens up options and utility with their choices. You cant call chi wave baseline just because everyone uses it. You seem to be confused about the mechanics of a monk and how they actually function and want to sit on top of numbers blindly to argue. Are you GC in disguise????
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Monk
9940

All you're doing is repeating "it doesn't work, it doesn't work!"

It does, because this is a single change to a single class. It is a way to gauge what can be expected of chi wave, come 5.2, because the spells are so incredibly similar. Look at WoL.

Could care less about pve.

02/21/2013 11:11 AMPosted by Elstarin
Chi wave will work almost exactly the same as that, and yet so many people try to insist that this is a crushing nerf to the ability. It's absurd. They are over reacting to a ridiculous degree.

Well, these forums are usually just giant QQ fests. Warriors and hunters complaining in their class forums? lololol. People will always complain just to complain in the class forums, but in this case there's some validity to the complaints. Our mana/efficiency can't keep up with a shaman or pally in arenas so seeing a heal get nerfed may worry people.

02/21/2013 11:11 AMPosted by Elstarin
Besides, you're acting like it's literally impossible to compare classes, and anyone who tries is stupid. Well, how about this? Discipline priests are a more powerful healer than restoration druids in PvE. So, either you can challenge me on that, or you can accept that you can in fact make comparisons.

Making a side by side comparison of one ability to another without factoring in other abilities is stupid and doesn't show anything. Maybe HST doesn't NEED to be as strong as wave for shamans do be viable in arenas. So using the argument that wave=hst doesn't prove anything.

Go look at MW representation in the top 15 3's in each battlegroup. I think there's one total, if that.
Reply Quote
90 Human Monk
9105
There's a Windwalker. I dont know if I saw a MW.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
OP...what you describe is sort of accurate but the deep issue is how the devs can't seem to balance things without homogenizing every spec. I don't see a lot of creativity in design. I see a lot of mirrored abilities like you describe which makes the game bland.
Reply Quote
Stupid thread. Nothing to see here folks.
Reply Quote
100 Pandaren Monk
8320
I usually don't play this card, but LFR monks should refrain from telling everyone else they've got it all wrong.
Reply Quote
80 Human Priest
3225
02/22/2013 08:03 AMPosted by Gyiatso
I usually don't play this card, but LFR monks should refrain from telling everyone else they've got it all wrong.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
10030
I don't feel labeling a post "to the complainers" is appropriate because everyone's view point should be respected / Often someone who might have had great luck with a great pvp team rbgs or arena / or a great high end guild assume their view point trumps all / I have played every healing class to include this great monk but I will say that I am not happy with what they did to Chi Wave. Granted, Chi burst might be something I consider using more often in this new patch but the initial change to Chi Wave with 100% increased healing seemed way more towards balancing Monks. Actually I'm really confused how you go from 100% more healing to 16% or whatever the new number is less healing. Almost as if they are listening to the wrong players testing this class. The comparising of Chi Wave and HST is irrelevant because there are too many factors that you are not taking into account. I do not see the need to lay out all these examples because at this point I no longer see the point in doing so considering the patch is pretty much or somewhat set in stone. I will say the initial changed seemed closer to balanced than the ladder of them. Almost as if developers are getting pressued to keep monks from being on tier with other healers. Yes, in some cases they can dish out nice numbers but when you consider all factors, monks are just not on Par. Heck, you look at how many active monk healers we have, how many monks healers guilds or raids are looking for. Arena, Rbgs, it all says the same story. Before you reply, I'm sure there are a few exceptions that have been lucky but on Par, many and I mean MANY, have not. Also, I hope nobody says, monks require a higher skill level to play because that's another way of saying, Monks were not developed properly in my book.
Having said all of this, I so much Love my Monk regardless because there are other great things about it then how unbalanced they are with healing.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
8880
Didn't realize chi wave was a raid wide smart heal. I can drop HST anywhere anytime and it will heal the lowest health anywhere in range. HST is superior throughput going most where it needs to go. Can't remember if HST is effected by mastery. Please spec wave and use it freely. Come back with a log showing its effective healing rather then the speculation that each spell results in the same actual healing.

The better comparison to shaman would be examining the respective lvl 30 talents. After 5.2 the choices for RShaman and MWers will be equally poor.

Edit: HST is effected by Mastery. Lower the health stronger the heal.
Edited by Glaurfu on 2/22/2013 6:56 PM PST
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]