Massive Tank Disparity

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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
All i have to say is... This Azrael guy... seems like a pretty cool guy.


He would be cooler if he got his co-tank to name change to Gargamel!
100 Blood Elf Paladin
13465
And a special addon that turned all the mobs into little blue people wearing white hats.
100 Human Paladin
18040
02/27/2013 12:37 PMPosted by Slashlove
All i have to say is... This Azrael guy... seems like a pretty cool guy.


He would be cooler if he got his co-tank to name change to Gargamel!


Nothing could make Az cool. Trust me.
90 Night Elf Druid
14475
02/24/2013 08:47 AMPosted by Rvalue
Wow, thanks for the staying on topic instead of lecturing Krinu, I appreciate it.


Says the guy that took the first chance to harp on the efficacy of modeling and simulation. Krinu's response likely should have happened earlier in the thread when you first assaulted the flaws of simplified models for broad stroke conclusions, but it is nonetheless on topic for this silly debate of model vs reality and now whether or not the mathematics line up at all or not.

You'll get your math, but your absolute distaste for modeling borders on obsessive.
90 Tauren Warrior
9435
02/28/2013 05:45 PMPosted by Fasc
You'll get your math, but your absolute distaste for modeling borders on obsessive.


I have a distaste for silliness. This all started because the OP challenged Krinu on the basis that krinu has never seen the heroic version of the fight. Krinu's response was "math". Except Krinu's math isn't anywhere near accurate.

The OP wasn't interested in the viability of warriors on paper with a lot of simplifying assumptions thrown in. Krinu's numbers did not take into account mastery stacking, stamina stacking, avoidance stacking, the avoidance difference between warriors and DK's, or any of a lot of other things. All it did is describe mitigation for 6 seconds from a full rage bar given a lot of assumptions, perfect play, and optimal conditions.

The OP had every right to question Krinu, and his response wasn't good.
90 Tauren Paladin
11340
You'll get your math, but your absolute distaste for modeling borders on obsessive.


I have a distaste for silliness. This all started because the OP challenged Krinu on the basis that krinu has never seen the heroic version of the fight. Krinu's response was "math". Except Krinu's math isn't anywhere near accurate.

The OP wasn't interested in the viability of warriors on paper with a lot of simplifying assumptions thrown in. Krinu's numbers did not take into account mastery stacking, stamina stacking, avoidance stacking, the avoidance difference between warriors and DK's, or any of a lot of other things. All it did is describe mitigation for 6 seconds from a full rage bar given a lot of assumptions, perfect play, and optimal conditions.

The OP had every right to question Krinu, and his response wasn't good.


Krinu modeled things pretty well for Heroic Will considering the conclusion was that 18 out of 20 seconds you could have your Shield Block rolling. 20 seconds is about how long the bosses will sit out there meleeing you before going back to the dance for another 20 seconds or so.

And it doesn't involve 'optimal conditions' as any good warrior would have a full rage bar and potentially a proc for Sword and Board to smooth out the damage over the course of the melee phase.

Pretty much any decent warrior will have enough hit and expertise to get that 120 rage, and as Krinu mathed out, you'd easily have at least 40 more in the first few globals which you wouldn't be spending after hitting Shield Block the first time.

Avoidance differences do not matter for a series of small sample sizes that effectively make up tank damage on Heroic Will. Even if you stack avoidance (as any class) you'll still be maximizing your AM and chaining cooldowns. Which route you choose to gear yourself as as a tank doesn't really matter. And the math she did didn't need to consider any of that as it had no bearing on the point she was trying to make.

Edit: I don't know if Krinu is a guy or girl but I seem to have assumed Krinu was a girl in this post.
/donthitme
Edited by Darpalta on 3/1/2013 11:28 PM PST
90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
03/01/2013 11:20 PMPosted by Rvalue
The OP wasn't interested in the viability of warriors on paper with a lot of simplifying assumptions thrown in


OP wasn't interested in anything but basless whining because he can't read a log.

Now kindly follow the OPs example and leave and let this die.
Edited by Ðemolition on 3/1/2013 11:39 PM PST
90 Tauren Warrior
9435
03/01/2013 11:30 PMPosted by Ðemolition
Now kindly follow the OPs example and leave and let this die.


I have every right to respond to someone who has responded to me, !@#$ you if you have a problem with it.
90 Tauren Warrior
9435
03/01/2013 11:26 PMPosted by Darpalta
Which route you choose to gear yourself as as a tank doesn't really matter.


lol.
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
The OP wasn't interested in the viability of warriors on paper with a lot of simplifying assumptions thrown in.


Which is a hilarious statement to make considering that's EXACTLY what the OP was trying to do the entire time.

Krinu's numbers did not take into account mastery stacking, stamina stacking, avoidance stacking, the avoidance difference between warriors and DK's, or any of a lot of other things


I'm not sure you actually completely understand/read the math that was done.
P.S. Who actually Stam Stacks or "Avoidance Stacks" Heroic Will on 10-man??
Edited by Slashlove on 3/2/2013 1:03 AM PST
100 Human Warrior
12440
03/02/2013 12:55 AMPosted by Slashlove
P.S. Who actually Stam Stacks or "Avoidance Stacks" Heroic Will on 10-man??


Better question is: What warrior "avoidance stacks" period?

Seriously, I'd like to see one >_>;
90 Tauren Warrior
9435
03/02/2013 12:55 AMPosted by Slashlove
I'm not sure you actually completely understand/read the math that was done.


Slash, I have a degree in Mathematics, I understood it just fine.

03/02/2013 12:55 AMPosted by Slashlove
P.S. Who actually Stam Stacks or "Avoidance Stacks" Heroic Will on 10-man??


No one does, but that wasn't the point. Stats matter.
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
No one does, but that wasn't the point. Stats matter.


It's entirely the point, especially if you're bringing it up in the context you are.

Slash, I have a degree in Mathematics, I understood it just fine.


Then why are you bringing up things that don't actually counter the model used ("Mastery Stacking" or "Avoidance Difference")?
Edited by Slashlove on 3/2/2013 2:24 AM PST
90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Still doing modeling. Including all the things makes the model annoyingly complicated, which makes me less inclined to work on it -.-

Quick point regarding stat stacking, though.

Stack stacking (mastery vs. avoidance, for example) has two possible outcomes:
1. They're different means to the same end, like Death Knights were in early Cataclysm. They play differently, but the total damage taken ends up being the same. In this case, you can simply pick one and model it, since they're functionally equivalent. A modern example would be haste-stacking versus mastery-stacking paladins: They play differently, but the final outcome is nearly identical.

2. They're different means to a different end, in which case you figure out which one is best for the most fights and model that method, because next to nobody reforges between fights on bosses. They might swap trinkets, glyphs, and talents, but it's really rare to reforge and regem gear.

Edit: I don't know if Krinu is a guy or girl but I seem to have assumed Krinu was a girl in this post.
/donthitme

...why would I hit you? It's a perfectly reasonable assumption to make; after all, my character is female.

As a general rule, my gender is my own business, and I'll answer to either pronoun. All I ask is that you try to be consistent within a post to save me some confusion.

Hell, I'll even answer to "it." Gender really doesn't matter here.
100 Orc Warrior
14155
the true issue isn't damage mitigation for warrior tanks, cause we're pretty damn good at it, the real issue at hand is how as gear gets better and better, other tanks have a secondary stat (other than hard expertise which atm isn't even SUPER good for warrior tanks) that help with reducing DTPS as well as increasing DPS, unless warriors get a MEGA scaling buff for AP (which we actually got nerfed recently) we will never be able to compete in DPS with monks and pally's and druids (i feel dk's are in the same spot) DOES ANYONE EVEN KNOW WHAT BLOOD LUST/HERO/TIME WARP DOES FOR A PROT WARRIOR BESIDES DECREASE HIS AUTO ATTACK TIMER!!!!!!!!!! IM DISTRAUGHT
90 Tauren Warrior
9435
03/02/2013 02:22 AMPosted by Slashlove
It's entirely the point, especially if you're bringing it up in the context you are.


Well, seeing as how it was my point, you don't get to tell me what is or isn't a part of that.

And avoidance on Will is really !@#$ing useful, so someone throwing on extra avoidance, or going with an avoidance trinket over a mastery trinket is actually not an outlandish thing to do.

03/02/2013 02:22 AMPosted by Slashlove
Then why are you bringing up things that don't actually counter the model used ("Mastery Stacking" or "Avoidance Difference")?


That's a strawman, I'm not countering his model, I've stated several times that his model was the wrong response to the OP. The OP had every right to question Krinu based upon his experience, and Krinu's response was not a response at all.

Here's how you shut me up. go take a random sampling of protection warriors doing the heroic will fight, and split them into 3 groups. undergeared, geared, overgeared, and then show me that his "model" actually fits the data.

Because that's the point. It isn't enough to have a "model", the numbers must reasonably fit the data. People don't ask "for the math", they ask "for the data". The math might not be telling you what you think it is (which is my point), but 'the data don't lie'.

03/02/2013 02:37 AMPosted by Krinu
2. They're different means to a different end, in which case you figure out which one is best for the most fights and model that method, because next to nobody reforges between fights on bosses. They might swap trinkets, glyphs, and talents, but it's really rare to reforge and regem gear.


You gear for the progression fight, end of story. This is *why* the OP had every right to question your experience.
90 Night Elf Druid
17755

And avoidance on Will is really !@#$ing useful, so someone throwing on extra avoidance, or going with an avoidance trinket over a mastery trinket is actually not an outlandish thing to do.


Lol?
I'm sorry, which game do you play where people actually consider avoidance trinkets good on Will? At best, you can claim that on-use trinkets are of greater benefit, but even there on-use avoidance trinkets are suboptimal.

Back this up just a tad. What actually makes you think that on a fight like Will, where healer disruption is a thing, avoidance is useful, compared to the guaranteed and strongest tool to make life easier for healers (for the two classes in question, Mastery)? To the point that someone might replace a Mastery trinket with an Avoidance trinket, no less?

You gear for the progression fight, end of story. This is *why* the OP had every right to question your experience.


You gear for the progression fight if it requires something specific. Will does not fit that bill.

There's no special reforging, stat stacking or anything required. There's no special EH check that demands slightly more Stamina. There's no special mechanic involved that changes what stats work best for this fight.


The OP had every right to question Krinu based upon his experience, and Krinu's response was not a response at all.
Here's how you shut me up. go take a random sampling of protection warriors doing the heroic will fight
....
Because that's the point. It isn't enough to have a "model", the numbers must reasonably fit the data. People don't ask "for the math", they ask "for the data". The math might not be telling you what you think it is (which is my point), but 'the data don't lie'.


Step 1 of questioning a model would be to first present data that contradicts the model and use that to question it.

The OP's questioning of Krinu came BEFORE that model. If you'd like, you can start reading the conversation again. His questioning has absolutely nothing to do with "theory" vs "practice", not was it based on anything actually relatable to the topic. He didn't dispute the relatively basic math in #3, his only move was to talk about how DK's 30 ilvls below him are better, some random claims about stuff he knows, and picking a fight based on someone's level 1 posting character:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7923033913?page=1

After that, he never bothered responding to the actual model, although it's hard to say if that's because he simply just doesn't understand math or because he was happy to let you enter troll mode for him.
Edited by Slashlove on 3/2/2013 5:02 AM PST
90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
03/02/2013 04:24 AMPosted by Rvalue
And avoidance on Will is really !@#$ing useful, so someone throwing on extra avoidance, or going with an avoidance trinket over a mastery trinket is actually not an outlandish thing to do.

Okay, what?

1. Avoidance is better when you're taking more damage, because it negates more damage.
2. Mastery (for Warriors and Death Knights, which is the point of this discussion) is better when you're taking more damage, because it negates more damage.

You can't pool avoidance during periods of non-use for those two classes.
You can pool mastery resources for those two classes.

Because of this pooling, mastery - not avoidance - ends up being more useful on this fight.

You gear for the progression fight, end of story. This is *why* the OP had every right to question your experience.

Because I'm advocating not wasting time reforging between bosses where tank gearing doesn't matter?

Again: How you play your class matters more than how you gear it, within certain constraints. If you run an all-intellect plate gearset for your warrior, stuff isn't going to work well. Even if you're gemming all avoidance, however, you're still not going to be anywhere near the difference that the OP claimed.

Sure, you gear for progression by ensuring that you're gemmed, reforged, and enchanted properly. Outside of the top-100 guilds, however, the tanks don't usually reforge between bosses. They swap trinkets, because the extra attempt is worth more than the slight increase in effectiveness.

Tank gear checks are usually itemlevel based, as we benefit from pretty much every stat on our gear. A 490 tank will have more, well, everything than a 470 tank, and because of that they take less damage, deal more damage, and have more EH.

However, for tanks at the same itemlevel, there isn't a whole lot we can change with reforges or re-gems. We can slightly increase our damage with accuracy stats. We can slightly increase our stamina with EH stats. We can slightly reduce our overall damage taken with avoidance. All of these things have tradeoffs, however, and unless there are REALLY weird fight mechanics that strongly favor one type over another, there's no reason to change between fights, because it's not worth the raid time. You just flat out don't gain enough.
90 Tauren Paladin
11340
03/02/2013 12:03 AMPosted by Rvalue
Which route you choose to gear yourself as as a tank doesn't really matter.


lol.


Shrugging things off without actually thinking about what they mean is a very good way to make yourself look like an idiot.

Every tank has multiple viable gearing routes. Any of these will work on Will, due to the fact that, as has been touched on multiple times above in this thread:

1). Tank damage is dealt over concentrated, short periods. These are spread enough to warrant cooldowning every single one of them in some manner. Thus small differences due to things like going for Mastery, Avoidance, or even Stamina will not show a meaningful difference in any given situation barring stupid amounts of luck (as in, avoiding literally every single attack in that melee phase - doing so is so unlikely its rather safe to say it is, in fact, impossible).

2). The amount of time you have to pool resources during the dance allows you to have your individual form of AM going full blaze right when you need it, and allows you to spam power it in a way that isn't normally sustainable, but that is fine due to the short period in which it is needed followed by a period of near-zero damage intake, allowing for more resource pooling to fuel the cycle all over again.

Things like exact stats do not matter for Krinu's model for one very simple reason, and one you touched on as the only means of a retort to your misguided argument, and that reason is simply that tanks of many varying gear levels have all been able to complete this encounter successfully. The majority of that stems from the two points above about how the fight works.

The things you're trying to refute the argument with are so stupidly small as factors in this they're more or less irrelevant. They have some impact, but not large enough to make or break you on this encounter one way or another, and as such trying to claim that not accounting for these things makes the model invalid is about as foolish as claiming a Jello factory is unfit for production because its floors aren't within 5% of perfectly level. Sure, it may have some effect - such as propping up some of the legs of certain objects ever so slightly to avoid things sliding off conveyors and such (akin to a healer resorting to a Flash Heal in lieu of a Greater Heal), but it doesn't have enough that it makes the entire factory fall apart.
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