Topic what do you do if...
They mix perfectly fine within a guild. They do not mix within a raid. Don't get to the 2 systems confused. As with so many issues in a guild, communication is the absolute key. If you are going to support a hardcore team, then make it clear you have a progression oriented team who's membership will be based on results, attendance, preparation, skill etc.
You are not choosing one over the other. You can easily support both. Just like you can support a raid team and an rbg team. They are 2 completely different aspects of game play that should not overlap. And your different tiered raid teams are the same. They should not overlap.
If you choose not to support progression raiding then you will be faced with 2 possibility from those who want it:
1) lose them
2) forever defend yourself against them when they ask 'why'
If you choose not to support a more laid back approach then you face 2 possibilities:
1) lose them
2) forever defend yourself against them when they ask 'why'
If you choose to support both you will probably lose a few here and there. That is inevitable. You will get the 'why' questions. But you will be able to deal with the 'why' questions easier. You'll provide a raiding atmosphere both groups are comfortable with. And as long you check attitudes at the door, you can minimize or negate any hard feelings over 'elitism' or casual bads. Keep everybody friends within the guild. Keep each raid team its own entity, though.
This is an example of a false dichotomy. Players cannot be easily segregated into 'hardcore' and 'casual'. Hardcore/casual are defined by amount of time played; not by ability. It is entirely possible to play a lot and be terrible, and play only a few hours a week and be accomplished.
Those who define themselves to be 'casual' fall into at least two distinct categories: 1) excellent players who have time constraints and want to be efficient with raiding; 2) bad players that play a lot but don't want to put in any effort and expect to be carried. These two do not mix at all.
In general, define a vision for your guild and make your members go around that. Remember that 'casual'/'hardcore' are defined by raid hours. If you want to run a 2 night a week, 2 hour each raid... that's casual regardless of how much or how little you get down. The specifics are up to you... i.e. are you going to cut people who don't perform? Are you going to be efficient with raid time, or do you want people to talk about their day and what not while pulling? These are up for you to decide.
Overall don't try to run a guild that caters to what the followers want. Figure out what you want to do and then find the people you need to do that with. It automatically unifies the team in goal and objective and makes it easier for everyone to make a decision (whether they should stay or go, for example).
Edited by Malorey on 2/14/13 12:42 PM (PST)
Actually, no, they really don't.
You can have "friends & family" type casual members in a Hardcore Raiding Guild and you can have "Casual Raiders" in a Casual/Social Guild but mixing a "Hardcore Raiding" mindset into a "Casual/Social" guild culture doesn't work.
Hardcore raiders think differently than casual players of any kind. They not only take raiding very seriously but the majority of what they do in game, including the leveling and playing of alts, is done to "feed" their main raiding toon.
Don't confuse a Casual Raiding Guild with a Hardcore Raiding Guild. They work in completely different ways and the players in them think differently about the game.
You should consider that many "casual" players think of any type of raiding with attendance policies, loot systems, etc. as "hardcore" mainly because they don't know the difference. Just because players want to raid doesn't mean that they want to "raid hardcore".
A "casual mindset" raid team will work perfectly fine within a Casual/Social guild structure if rules/guidelines are set forth for participation in raids and if those rules/guidelines are supported by the GL/Officers whether they choose to raid or not.
Raiding can bring a new dynamic into a Social Guild that can strengthen the overall culture if it is set up correctly.
Talk to the players you have that are interested in raiding, set some ground rules for attendance, preparation and participation and find out if any of them are interested in Raid Leading if you are not. From there you should be able to determine what direction to move in.
I agree very much. There's always been players in my guild that just don't raid.
But if you want to raid as a guild and you don't have enough folks who want to raid hardcore so you convince the casual/non-raiders to fill in raid spots, that's when you get problems. The casuals start complaining that they can't play the game as they want because the hardcores keep telling them how to gem/chant/spec, and the hardcores complain that last night's wipefest was because the casuals won't take the time to learn their class.
Edited by Kurston on 2/14/13 1:08 PM (PST)
OP, you don't differentiate on what the "casuals" want to do. That is... is it casual raiding vs. hard-core raiding?
The other problem with the definition of "casual". It means different things to different people. Usually casual raiding means they have fewer raid nights and reserve the right to be absent on a whim without repercussion.
If you are trying to do progression having people be "casual raiders" can be very difficult. But as others have stated that doesn't mean they aren't top-notch players. What it does mean, however is that progress will be slowed significantly due to absences.
I think it is possible to have both a casual and a hard-core raid team in the same guild if the guild is big enough and two raid teams do not co-mingle people. You just need to be sure that you define the rules of play for each of the teams and what is expected to be on the team.
One way this can work is to have hard-core raiders raid early in the week, but have the casuals raid on the weekend. This allows your hard-core raider alts to help the casual group if they come up short.
Actually, no, they really don't.
You could if you have two teams. It's been done numerous of times before and can be done with time, hardwork, and patience. Khahan is right.. Communication is your number one.
Really the decision is yours but finding out what other players in your guild want will make them feel included in the decisions of the guild.
First Step: Find out what the people want and make a ratio chart.
Second Step: I would take this time to start checking out the hardcore players armory. It is one thing to WANT to go hardcore but it is another thing in doing so. If they havent taken the time to gem and enchant properly or have not taken the time to equip themselves with a decent ilvl then how can you take them serious in 5.2?
Third Step: Take this time to ask the guild members questions. Find out why these hardcore players want to go hardcore. Find out why the casual players only want to go casual.
Fourth Step: Make The Decision.
Many guilds that are hardcore today started out as casual. They took the time to accept anyone who wanted to pve or pvp no matter the skill and as time grew they made those players stronger and in the end made the guild stronger as a whole. If you choose to go casual you can recruit for higher caliber players in a year or two. If you choose to go hardcore or choose to go both ways make sure you set rules and guidelines to skip the elitism drama.
Hope this helps!
Hardcore and casual mean different things to different people. Some use it to describe time commitments. Some use it to describe skill. Some use it to describe personal commitments or mentality.
Whether or not hardcore and casual can fit together in the same guild depends entirely on what the leadership wants and what steps the leadership makes to support both.
The last thing you want to do if you want both hardcore and casual raiding in the same guild is force both sides to make sacrifices for the other. Because the hardcore and casual sides both have to compromise then both sides will ask why it is worth it to stay in a guild together.
4 Undead Mage
Edited by Pyrettaßlaze on 2/14/13 4:12 PM (PST)
While I appreciate the candor with which the label 'followers' is used, leadership that ignores the collective desire of its membership doesn't remain an active guild, assuming they reach that level at all.
On topic, casual and hardcore are meaningless clichés at this point and serve no other purpose other than to incite the dialecticbots towards forum flame war.
Edited by Spartaxan on 2/14/13 4:39 PM (PST)
Funnel gear to the real raid team? I'm sorry I don't understand this logic. If you mean when the further progressed team has spots opened and they ask the casuals if they want a shot at progression to prove themselves?
It seems you have the mentality of a guild vs a raid team when in actuality they are apart of the same organization and the glue is the leadership. If you dont have the leadership and cannot balance the two correctly without it becoming a controversial topic then the option is to choose which team you see your guild being more attuned too. It is all about communication and the leadership.
Having two different types of raid teams isn't that big of a stretch as long as it's approached correctly.
Make them fully separate and autonomous within the guild construct. Have different ranks, tabs, leaders, recruitment, etc. The difference is there is still a central guild structure that shelters the groups.
Make sure the group leaders are clear with rules and enforce them fairly and it's a breeze.
The issue in this case is I would think, that it would be nearly impossible to recruit up to fill both teams at once, depending on the number of players that want to raid "casually" vs "hardcore," regardless of how they define those words individually. Which means it may be more logical to break things up, whichever side is smallest look to join another guild that more closely suits. Or, stay combined while both groups try to fill numbers.
You CAN do two groups, but doing so may prove difficult this close to 5.2.
Edited by Gigglefoot on 2/15/13 6:18 AM (PST)
Now, the issue would be you have 2 groups within your organization who are of 2 different mindsets. What is the pervasive mindset of the guild as a whole? Do you have a guiding principle or mission for the guild? If you don't, it's time to develop one.
...leadership that ignores the collective desire of its membership doesn't remain an active guild, assuming they reach that level at all.
This is true to a point. By that, I mean if you have a mission and goal for your guild and are serving that particular community, it is easy to see the view in conflict with this mission. For example, the mission says you will run 2 nights a week for 2-3 hours at a time. Group B (whom we'll assume, because no specifics are given, is the minority) has raised the issue of wanting to raid 4 nights a week for 3-4 hours at a time. Do you change the whole mission of the guild to suit 5 players, or do you continue with how you do things because it suits the majority of the guild and your vision for your guild. That's sort of an individual call.
My own experience with a social guild who raids mainly to have fun together and see some content (we raid one night and aren't progressed at all - everyone has families, children, jobs, dissertations, etc. and this suits our collective desire) has been that from time to time, someone says, "we should raid more nights!" or "we should have a second 'hard core' team!". We have stuck to the mission of being a social guild who raids because we like each other's company and it has worked. Sometimes we lose a person who wishes to be more progression-focused. Sometimes they come back to us when they realize what that actually entails, sometimes I get hugs and waves from them when I see them in-game with their fancy raid gear and 'hardcore' raiding guld tag... And every Wednesday the same group of people log on to raid together for a few hours....
I know that it's possible to run several raid teams at once and have them at different spots in progression. It takes a lot of effort and several people you trust to lead groups independently within your organization.
It's up to you what you want to do. There's some good advice in this thread. Good luck.
I've been in an RP guild that had casual and hardcore raiders (casuals pugging, I thnk but maybe there was a second group and I didn't know it. I was in it for the RP) The hardcore raiders were in the guild for the raids and the casual raiders were more hardcore RPers and less serious about raiding.
Maybe it worked out because the RPers and the raiders had totally different goals and weren't really competing. Maybe the hardcores were not as HC as they seemed to be, but the RPers were hardcore about their lore. Guild main chat was for OOC only and there were separate chats for raiding talk and in chracter RP.
Edited by Khahan on 2/15/13 8:17 AM (PST)
Actually yes, they do. Just because you haven't managed to find that middle ground yet (and given maybe its because you haven't tried because you haven't had that situation come up) doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Yes, it takes a lot of work and can take some ego soothing. But within a GUILD they can co-exist. Within a raid-team, they cannot.
The casuals start complaining that they can't play the game as they want because the hardcores keep telling them how to gem/chant/spec, and the hardcores complain that last night's wipefest was because the casuals won't take the time to learn their class.
Yes, this WILL come up. But proper communication can keep these events from turning into drama bombs.
First thing you need to do is to find out exactly what your guildies mean by casual and hardcore.
As others have said, not everyone has the same definition. If it hasn't been discussed among the people already - even your guildies who say, for example, they want "hardcore" raiding may have very different conceptions about what that involves.
When it comes right down to it - first things first. See who is really on the same wavelength, and ditch the tags of casual/hardcore until you have a firm idea of what people really want.
Former hardcore raiders tend to have a stricter vision of what even "casual" entails - to the point that people who have only done LFR, or are just beginning to want to try raiding, would consider those former's "casual" their "hardcore." So make sure everyone has compatible visions within your "groups" before you even start worrying about teams.
Just as an example - I would pretty much expect "casual" to have attendance policies, gem and enchant requirements, and to be expected to check on my spell balance and output on WoL to see what I'm not doing as well as I could. I'd expect if I wanted different buff food etc than a banquet would give, I'd better have it on me, as well as request any needed pots/flasks from the guild bank ahead of time. And I'd figure on being in vent, at the instance, 15 minutes before start. But I'd figure we'd be running a couple nights for maybe 3 hours a night, and not pushing progression to the bleeding edge. And that we would be working with people more than replacing whenever possible. Probably raiding a tier behind.
One of my friends considers meeting the ilvl requirement as being more than adequate, and would consider my thoughts of what I'd expect of myself and my fellows harsh and extreme.
It all depends on what you're accustomed to. So have a sitdown with everyone individually, or have your officers do so. Make a list of what they have as team and self expectations - no labels.
And see if what they're looking for might be closer than the labels imply.
I am saying as little as possible, as I am getting SO much good feedback just by sitting here lurking :3
Anyway, to clear it up "casual" raider to me, means you don't care how many times you wipe, and will take anyone at the minimum ilvl of 470 to do MV on normal, "hardcore" to me means you will only take the best of the best, and make effort for everyone to be geared up, as in, this late in the patch, you would only be taking those that made the effort to get to ilvl 489ish or higher, have their gear gemmed/enchanted, and know mechanics inside and out and you know that when you go with that group, you're not going to wipe 10 times on Stone Guard, and are very likely to down it the first try, or third attempt at the latest. Does that make sense?