SoJ Revert.

90 Human Paladin
5865
Taken from Vanguard's facebook.

Paladin
- We're worried that we're not going to be able to get the new Seal of Justice on PTR in a good place. We still like the goal of giving Ret more damage outside of their long cooldowns, but Censure just brings a lot of benefits that are going to be hard to reproduce in any kind of "build up to burst" mechanic. When faced with decisions like these where the new design isn't a clear win, we think the right decision is to revert the change. It's possible we could buff Seal of Justice (the 5.1 version) to 20% damage from 16% damage, but overall it would still probably not get much use in PvP.
- However, we haven't given up on the idea of solving Ret's problems of long cooldowns. We are going to try changing the 4pc PvP set bonus to lowering the cooldown on Avenging Wrath by 1 min. This is a set bonus that has worked out pretty well in PvE and would help Ret keep up pressure more frequently without getting to the point of one-shot abilities.
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90 Human Paladin
5865
I heard the new SoJ was everything but reliable anyways. So I'm guessing most PvP Ret's will enjoy the revert.

This change should affect us in a positive way all across the board. Since we'll have wings up more often, that means even more HoPo generation and obviously more dmg :D
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86 Human Warrior
6860
Someone re-revert the gaining Selfless Healer procs from Holy Shock as Holy. To the ptr machine!
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18840
it be neat since they do know the reduced 1min off wings was a great idea for the pve set bonus, if they just make AW 2min base, give the pvp set a new bonus, and w/e the could do for t14
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90 Human Paladin
5865
So I guess it's safe to say that this is the happy medium, because if I remember correctly there was negative feedback on the 4pc bonus as well? So this kill 2 birds with one stone? But yeah this change also puts SW as a very very viable choice now.

I feel like this change should bring rets exactly to where they need to be. With extreme single target burst every 2 min, they could easily become viable again for RBG's IMO.
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90 Human Paladin
5090
I'm glad to see the PvP set bonus changed, I'm a bit bummed about the new SoJ mechanic going away. It would have been fun, the damage might have needed a bit of a buff.
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90 Human Paladin
17595
I kinda wonder if we're gonna eventually just go back to 2 minute Avenging Wrath baseline.
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90 Human Paladin
12900
02/15/2013 06:21 PMPosted by Lobster
I kinda wonder if we're gonna eventually just go back to 2 minute Avenging Wrath baseline.

I have a feeling it will happen eventually. Uneven cooldowns aren't fun in either PVE or PVP.


At least make them even multiples (not saying I want 4 min avenging wrath). So that you can line them up a bit easier.
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90 Human Paladin
10930


I have a feeling it will happen eventually. Uneven cooldowns aren't fun in either PVE or PVP.


At least make them even multiples (not saying I want 4 min avenging wrath). So that you can line them up a bit easier.


I think GC addressed this a while back. Something about there being no thought about when to use cooldowns if they all line up because you can always use them together. They like them having odd cooldowns so we put some thought into when and how we use them. That's what I remember, anyway.
Edited by Sliphe on 2/15/2013 6:50 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
12900
Right, currently you can actually line up AW and HA every 6 minutes while never delaying them. GoAK though you have to delay it a bit if you want to line it up with that 6 minute mark.

How HA and AW currently line up:
0:00 HA + AW
2:00 HA
3:00 AW
4:00 HA
6:00 HA + AW
--- repeats ---

That's under ideal conditions of course.

I'm actually super lazy and have AW and HA in a macro that lines them up just like that. It's not ideal, but works fine for an LFR hero.
Edited by Bravehearth on 2/15/2013 7:11 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
5090
It would have been fun dropping 5 stacks of justice with AW!
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90 Human Paladin
17495
Well changing SoJ would be nice if they could manage to get a nice balance worked out where it was worth using but it is nice to see that in the current ptr state that it was just not worth using and only took away from some limited use that it had in the past.

Hopefully they will keep it on the back burner and try to come up with some ideas on how to improve the seal.

For now the AW change would certainly be welcome and I don't see how even the most skeptical people around here would complain about this one.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13415
02/15/2013 08:15 PMPosted by Vir
It would have been fun dropping 5 stacks of justice with AW!


I have to admit, the damage felt cool when everything went well, but that was the problem - it was really, really unreliable on the PTR. While you were building stacks, you weren't putting any real additional pressure on your target, and it was hard to line up having 3 Holy Power AND 5 stacks of SoJ on your target, or else trying to make sure you weren't wasting anymore stacks on your target (for example, you had 5 stacks on him but only 1 Holy Power, which happened often). Not to mention, it also meant Inquisition became that much more important to keep refreshed to have Justice's strike benefit from it.

Granted, there were a TON of bugs, namely HoFreedom making a target immune to these stacks, but it didn't feel like it'd be better once you fixed it anyway, at least not without some kind of passive damage already affecting the target while you built stacks.
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90 Human Paladin
5090
02/15/2013 10:55 PMPosted by Jackishi
It would have been fun dropping 5 stacks of justice with AW!


I have to admit, the damage felt cool when everything went well, but that was the problem - it was really, really unreliable on the PTR. While you were building stacks, you weren't putting any real additional pressure on your target, and it was hard to line up having 3 Holy Power AND 5 stacks of SoJ on your target, or else trying to make sure you weren't wasting anymore stacks on your target (for example, you had 5 stacks on him but only 1 Holy Power, which happened often). Not to mention, it also meant Inquisition became that much more important to keep refreshed to have Justice's strike benefit from it.

Granted, there were a TON of bugs, namely HoFreedom making a target immune to these stacks, but it didn't feel like it'd be better once you fixed it anyway, at least not without some kind of passive damage already affecting the target while you built stacks.


I hope they bring the mechanic back with a separate seal (command?) and maybe better mechanics. I think part of the pushback was because it was replacing the old seal of justice, but you (and others) made valid points with the criticism of the new Seal of Justice.
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90 Draenei Paladin
9865
Given how much weaker Ret is outside of CDs compared to other classes and how its high visibility pretty much guarantees you will be shut down when you cast it, Avenging Wrath really should be 2 min baseline.

Retribution's PVP 4 pc bonus needs to be changed to "You maintain at least 1 Holy Power at all times."

Ret's problem is sustained. This can be attributed to several reasons, but in a PVP setting a large part of this is because you must first build up to cast Inquisition. The damage dealt while generating those first 3 Holy Power is already needlessly gimped.

So you get those 3 Holy Power and cast Inquisition. Now you must build back up to at least 3 Holy Power again before you can even consider Templar's Verdict, but because of the inherent cooldowns of our Holy Power generators and Ret's history of struggling to reach their target, this will take some time.

By the time you are able to generate the necessary Holy Power, there's a very good chance that you will not be within melee range of your target. Kiting, stuns, fears, etc ensure that the majority of the duration of Inquisition will have been spent in pursuit of the target. So by the time a Ret is finally able to get within melee range of their target, Holy Power will most likely have to be spent on Inquisition again instead of Templar's Verdict.

To further compound the issue, Inquisition is also necessary for survival, as the additional 10% crit affects our heals as well.

In short, a PVP setting punishes the current Ret mechanics because Ret's damage and survival are gimped by Ret's need to buff their damage and survival.

Changing the PVP 4 pc bonus to allowing Ret to maintain at least 1 Holy Power helps PVP Ret in multiple ways.

Having that constant 1 Holy Power alleviates a lot of the punishment of having to maintain Inquisition. Inquisition fell off during a CC? You will now always have at least 1 Holy Power to get the buff back up and running so those first 3 HP generators aren't needlessly gimped. Even if you had 3 HP, casting Inquisition would still leave you with 1 HP to assist in getting back to what it is that Ret is supposed to do, which brings me to my next point.

This also means more frequent access to Templar's Verdict. More frequent access to Templar's Verdict is a BUFF TO SUSTAINED DAMAGE.

In addition to Templar's Verdict, this would give more frequent access to Word of Glory. Given Ret's dependence on Divine Shield for survival and the fact that it can be removed by 2 of the most dominant classes, Rets are easily trained. More Word of Glory casts would at least help to delay the inevitable.

A counterpoint to Word of Glory, however, would be the need to give WoG the TV treatment. Unless WoG were only able to be cast with 3 HP, a constant 1 HP could be abused by spamming 1 HP WoGs, which could be further abused when coupled with Divine Purpose.

And finally, though least important imo, this would make Pursuit of Justice a more enticing option for those Paladins who can't Holy Shock themselves to a higher run speed.
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