SoJ Revert.

90 Blood Elf Paladin
11030
If the PvP 4 set bonus was "Removes the cost on Inquisition but adds a 30 sec cd to it" and the AW was at a baseline 2min cd for the spec and/or class, I believe this would help our dmg outside of cd's without changing too much (wouldn't have to waste HP on Inquisition)

Especially since most people who have problems with Inquistion are just having problems with keeping it up every 30 secs and not the building HP for it...

*note* I don't have problems keeping Inquisition up, just hate the gimped dmg we do while initially trying to build HP for it. Or say it runs out while we are cc'd, we must once again do gimped dmg to get Inquisition up again...
Edited by Valtýrael on 2/19/2013 1:08 PM PST
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94 Draenei Paladin
11145
02/19/2013 12:26 PMPosted by Lobster
Calling you out on your lack of research isn't an insult.


You did not call me out on a lack of research. You became frustrated with your inability to provide a convincing argument and resorted to insulting me by claiming that I am unable to understand how resources work.

Notice the difference between insulting (what you did) and actually calling someone out on a lack of research (when I listed several ranged of abilities of other melee classes in response to your claims that all other melee can do "NOTHING" when not in melee range).

02/19/2013 12:26 PMPosted by Lobster
You've never played a feral druid or rogue before, have you..


I have a lvl 90 Feral, a lvl 85 Feral on a different server that was my main for the majority of WotLK, and I have yet another Feral sitting at lvl 80 on an inactive account from when my friends on Horde stopped playing the game.

More importantly, however, is that in an inability to provide a convincing argument that refutes my position, you again resort to trying to belittle me by making unfounded claims that I have no idea what I'm talking about.

You talk of lack of research while I have at every turn supported my claims with in-depth examples that utilize some of the inner-most workings of both specs.

You talk of lack of understanding when you don't seem to comprehend that maintaining 1 HP would in fact provide a buff to the very problems you admit the spec has (survival and offensive pressure). But since I understand that you could very well just be refusing to acknowledge this fact because it undermines your position against implementing the bonus, I refrain from insulting your intelligence, ability to comprehend, or your ability to play the game.

02/19/2013 12:26 PMPosted by Lobster
Again, why does Inq need to be free when our resource regen is already easy and reliable? Waiting for a reason that doesn't involve mentioning a different class with completely different mechanics.


Again, because not having Inquisition up renders our opening HP generators even weaker than they already are when the spec is already suffering from weak sustained/poor offensive pressure.

Again, being caught in CC long enough for Inquisition to fall off means we are once again even weaker, once again having to build up for Inquisition, and once again having to spend HP on a necessary buff instead of TV (offensive pressure) or WoG (survival/off-heal).

02/19/2013 12:26 PMPosted by Lobster
Right now our damage and healing are balanced around a reliable resource regen model, but that set bonus would throw a massive wrench into all of it resulting in our damage, healing, and baseline resource regen being rebalanced around it.


Our damage is based around being able to line up multiple major CDs that are too scarcely available and too easily shut down.

This set bonus would be a means of support to bring that damage (as well as poor survival and off heals) up to a competitive level.

Since the bonus would serve as a band-aid buff, nothing would be rebalanced around it. It would provide a temporary fix to the spec for PVP purposes until the class is able to recieve the level of maintenance that it really needs. And as we have already seen with such awesome changes as HoS as a dispel and the already reverted new SoJ, the spec will likely not be getting the level of maintenance that it really needs.
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100 Orc Death Knight
17925
You realize that without SnD up rogues do way less damage as well in addition to the loss of energy regeneration. Retribution isn't the only class that needs to maintain something to keep damage going.

Giving Retribution one static holy power at all times is completely messy and unnecessary, it would mess with other mechanics as well. Not that a single point word of glory is a grand amount, but you could literally spam it without consequence, which would make some pretty awful game play for all players involved.

Like you mentioned you could simply make WoG useable only at three, but that would also feel awful. There are plenty of times where a restriction like that would lose you plenty of games as there are times your ally or yourself simply can't wait for another GCD to pass. It's far too restrictive and just causes way too much mess.

Rets current problems has nothing to do with the mechanics of the class. The class feels and plays (from a mechanical stand point) way better than the end of Cataclysm where Retribution in arena at least were in a very good place. Healing/support was incredibly high and damage during CDs was just as good as it was today. The problems with Retribution today are other classes being absolutely absurd combined with numerical tweaks that Retribution needs.

Two minute wings, a 15-20% healing buff and other classes being toned down a notch is a step in the right direction. Fundamentally though you can't change core mechanics like you're proposing because you would have to re-balance/adjust pretty much EVERYTHING.

In short a stable 1 holy power breaks the class and causes way too much re-balancing. If you want to ask for buffs ask for utility changes that Holy doesn't bring or some tweaks to your healing capability. Ret not scoring kills in arena outside of CDs isn't a retribution specific problem, this is a problem seen across a lot of classes and is a core design flaw with the game IMO.
Edited by Gròmmash on 2/20/2013 12:52 AM PST
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94 Draenei Paladin
11145
02/20/2013 12:51 AMPosted by Gròmmash
Not that a single point word of glory is a grand amount, but you could literally spam it without consequence, which would make some pretty awful game play for all players involved.


I don't understand the purpose of bringing up a point that I already countered in my original suggestion...it's nice of you to tag in for your guildmate though.

02/20/2013 12:51 AMPosted by Gròmmash
Like you mentioned you could simply make WoG useable only at three, but that would also feel awful. There are plenty of times where a restriction like that would lose you plenty of games as there are times your ally or yourself simply can't wait for another GCD to pass. It's far too restrictive and just causes way too much mess.


Many thought the same thing when Templar's Verdict and Divine Storm were restricted to only being able to be cast with 3 HP. Players don't even recognize that there is a restriction anymore. It's simply how those abilities work.

As for the "plenty of times where a restriction like that would lose you plenty of games", the overall boon of more frequently being able to cast 3 HP WoGs helps to keep you from getting into the position where you "simply can't wait for another GCD to pass".

And considering how little a 1 HP WoG heals for, it's pretty safe to say that you're grossly exaggerating how frequently a 1 HP WoG would decide the outcome of a game instead of delaying the inevitable for another second.

02/20/2013 12:51 AMPosted by Gròmmash
The class feels and plays (from a mechanical stand point) way better than the end of Cataclysm where Retribution in arena at least were in a very good place.


Better because we now have to choose between Judge-sprint and passive run speed, between Zealotry and Divine Purpose, between reduced cooldown on stun and Repentance (which we now have to cast), and have considerably weaker heals? Oh, but we can shoot a laser beam every 20 seconds...

02/20/2013 12:51 AMPosted by Gròmmash
Fundamentally though you can't change core mechanics like you're proposing because you would have to re-balance/adjust pretty much EVERYTHING.


02/19/2013 11:33 PMPosted by Calcifix
Since the bonus would serve as a band-aid buff, nothing would be rebalanced around it. It would provide a temporary fix to the spec for PVP purposes until the class is able to recieve the level of maintenance that it really needs. And as we have already seen with such awesome changes as HoS as a dispel and the already reverted new SoJ, the spec will likely not be getting the level of maintenance that it really needs.


Implementing a needed buff to a weak aspect of a class does not require rebalancing of other aspects unless the buff is too strong. Say classes are intended to perform at a value of 3, broken down as 1+1+1. If a class is performing at 2, or 1+1, adding a buff of +1 brings it in line with the other 3's. If the buff brings the class to where it needs to be, you don't suddenly have to start throwing in -.3 here or +.1 there.

02/20/2013 12:51 AMPosted by Gròmmash
Two minute wings, a 15-20% healing buff and other classes being toned down a notch is a step in the right direction.


Look at how many changes are taking place and still the spec would be sub-par to other melee.

I really don't understand why you think a single change that allows Ret to more frequently use finishers in PVP is somehow worse than multiple direct buffs to damage and healing when they equate to the same thing.
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90 Human Paladin
16000
Many thought the same thing when Templar's Verdict and Divine Storm were restricted to only being able to be cast with 3 HP. Players don't even recognize that there is a restriction anymore. It's simply how those abilities work.


That's because it was a DPS loss if you used at any time before three holy power. WoG doesn't suffer from that same failed concept.

02/20/2013 10:21 AMPosted by Calcifix
As for the "plenty of times where a restriction like that would lose you plenty of games", the overall boon of more frequently being able to cast 3 HP WoGs helps to keep you from getting into the position where you "simply can't wait for another GCD to pass".


Completely changing the flow of Ret to have 1HoPo up at all times would result in nerfs in other areas... They'd probably make TV require 4HoPo and WoG would get nerfed for having a consistent HoPo charge. It's a flawed idea because it doesn't solve the problems.

02/20/2013 10:21 AMPosted by Calcifix
And considering how little a 1 HP WoG heals for, it's pretty safe to say that you're grossly exaggerating how frequently a 1 HP WoG would decide the outcome of a game instead of delaying the inevitable for another second.


1HoPo WoG has the potential to do 20-50k heals depending on your luck. If you're LoSing an enemy team and that's all you have as DoTs are rolling on you... I sure as hell want to use that one WoG + 2 FoLs before I reengage.

Better because we now have to choose between Judge-sprint and passive run speed, between Zealotry and Divine Purpose, between reduced cooldown on stun and Repentance (which we now have to cast), and have considerably weaker heals? Oh, but we can shoot a laser beam every 20 seconds...


It's a far better system because every other ridiculous concept from Cata has been dropped at this point. I'd trade all of that like we have to be viable and that's what happened. We're not exactly favored to the point of being faceroll easy to 2k but, we sure as hell can hold our own against every Class/Spec now.

Implementing a needed buff to a weak aspect of a class does not require rebalancing of other aspects unless the buff is too strong. Say classes are intended to perform at a value of 3, broken down as 1+1+1. If a class is performing at 2, or 1+1, adding a buff of +1 brings it in line with the other 3's. If the buff brings the class to where it needs to be, you don't suddenly have to start throwing in -.3 here or +.1 there.


Adding in a new concept to Ret tools would add in another round of ridiculous nerfs/buffs to Ret in order to balance it. Fix the problems inherently wrong with the spec now and do not add in a new dynamic to the puzzle in trying to create PvP balance. Similar to the Monk/Rogue buffs that are currently being released in 5.2 that completely change the face of the game... Adding in new concepts sounds great but, in use they could be devastating to all parties involved.

Look at how many changes are taking place and still the spec would be sub-par to other melee.

I really don't understand why you think a single change that allows Ret to more frequently use finishers in PVP is somehow worse than multiple direct buffs to damage and healing when they equate to the same thing.


It's easier to number tweak than it is to simply give something free.. Now if your idea is implemented they would have to number crunch having WoGs being easily gained and finishers being easy to reach. When they could simply say "Well Ret is doing X less damage... So lets take their core abilities and buff them by Y."

If you've done any sort of programming you would understand THAT is far easier to reproduce an outcome than trying to create additions to the problem.

Since you like basic math so much I'll give you an easy example...

5+X=10

What you're attempting to do is simply...

Y(5+X)=10

Adding a new concept to the already existing problem in hand...
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100 Draenei Paladin
19175
Many thought the same thing when Templar's Verdict and Divine Storm were restricted to only being able to be cast with 3 HP. Players don't even recognize that there is a restriction anymore. It's simply how those abilities work.


WoG has always scaled linearly. Two 1 HP WoGs heals for roughly the same amount as a 2 HP WoG, etc.

TV scaled on a very steep curve. Using TV before you had 3 HP was a massive loss in dps. And had to be. Otherwise we'd rarely wait for a full HP TV.

All the change did in requiring 3 HP for TV was to remove a huge fail button from the spec. If you ever used a TV with less than 3 HP, you failed. That's not the same for WoG. And giving ret even a relatively small resource free heal that can't be countered would be incredibly broken. More so in how it would inflate the level of burst and dps we'd be putting out. It would throw everything out of whack and be a nightmare to balance.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13415
Jeez. This argument is STILL raging? Calcifix, you're crusading for a set bonus that will not be implemented anytime soon, and if anything doesn't need to be implemented. I'll admit, it's interesting, but just that. Interesting. Not the needed change for Ret's viability that you claim it to be, and has the potential to really mess things up, as Roelath eloquently explained above.

02/20/2013 10:21 AMPosted by Calcifix
And considering how little a 1 HP WoG heals for, it's pretty safe to say that you're grossly exaggerating how frequently a 1 HP WoG would decide the outcome of a game instead of delaying the inevitable for another second.


One/Two HP WoGs has saved me enough times in PvP at flag nodes to warrant my continued usage of it, never mind that like Snoz said, WoG always scaled linearly while TV and DS don't. There's no need to compare the two finishers.

Better because we now have to choose between Judge-sprint and passive run speed, between Zealotry and Divine Purpose, between reduced cooldown on stun and Repentance (which we now have to cast), and have considerably weaker heals? Oh, but we can shoot a laser beam every 20 seconds...


Yes, actually. Because the mechanics you listed above aren't the only things Paladins received. Our abilities have great synergy with Haste, and Long Arm and Pursuit of Justice were buffed beyond their original iterations in Cata, Repentance was a bit of a loss but Blinding Light is just as adequate in tight situations (if a skilled Ret uses it right, and let's face it, more often than not, the reason we used Repentance back then was to catch kiters, a problem we don't have as often now), our heals are getting buffed in 5.2, and Holy Prism is by far one of the coolest abilities we have in our PvP arsenal, if not the flashiest.
Edited by Jackishi on 2/20/2013 2:50 PM PST
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100 Orc Death Knight
17925
Look at how TV and DS scale compared to WoG. The only 'gain' you get from having a higher point WoG it's more efficient use of GCDs using it at two or three as opposed to spamming it at one. WoG scales in a linear fashion, it's not a lot at one but people would LoS and spam it until it's safe, trust me.

You might not think other people understand but nobody understands your suggestion at all. If you can't see how it completely changes your class than there really isn't a point in having a discussion. There is a reason the class operates the way it does and it wasn't designed around having one constant holy power.

Like I mentioned ask for other things but this one is far too much work and completely mucks too much of the class up.

And I mean the class is better because its FAR MORE FLUID. The way Retribution worked in Cataclysm was a awfully implemented Rogue with far too much RNG. It started out awfully in the first season of Cataclysm and it's only saving graces in the last two seasons were it's amazing healing potential and it's great burst (burst which still exists). You might like the old model but many don't. Generating 1 holy power based solely on crusader strike compared to generating one on every attack is far more enjoyable to play. Retribution is far more refined today and is pretty much a complete specialization compared to the bastardization the Cataclysm model presented.

Utility beyond that of holy paladin would allow Retribution to stand out in RBG/BGs, that's what you should be asking for if you care about being in those things. Their damage and healing is not what people who do these things competitively look for. To be fair all melee are at an inherent disadvantage in RBGs/BGs and it's not just exclusive to Ret. Unless you're a flag carrier or a Frost DK people are simply going to overlook you. Frost DKs do amazing damage but their main purpose in competitive RBGs is utility based. Without gorefiends grasp much like other melee frost DKs would likely be overlooked as well. Again it's utility and a range/melee bias, it's much more of a game design fail than it is a problem exclusive to retrubution.

As far as arena goes Retribution will be in a much better state come 5.2. The sacrifice dispel will be fairly massive in 3s and buffed heals are going to help a lot. If I had to pinpoint any specific change that Retribution might need further in 3s it would simply be more healing and like the RBG comment possibly some slight utility.

Changing core design in the middle of an expansion with a specialization that feels great isn't a good way to go about balancing the class. Number tweaks and utility is all your likely to get and all you should get.

Please don't play a game of cherry picking talents and abilities you use to have baseline either it doesn't make your argument any better, your painting yourself as a victim when pretty much every class (except probably Warriors) lost a lot but got abilities back in the form of talents which are slightly better. Long arm is way better than it use to be. Don't try to act like FoJ was something taken away from you either because it was a hard choice in Cataclysm too. You either picked a shorter CD on HoJ or you made your WoG way stronger by making it crit below 35% nearly 100% of the time.
Edited by Gròmmash on 2/20/2013 4:23 PM PST
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94 Draenei Paladin
11145
02/20/2013 03:49 PMPosted by Gròmmash
Changing core design in the middle of an expansion with a specialization that feels great isn't a good way to go about balancing the class.


Is Avenging Wrath being reduced to 2 mins baseline not changing core design in the middle of an expansion? Or is increasing the frequency with which you can cast something only wrong if it happens on shorter intervals? Then what about the PVE Holy bonus that reduces Holy Shock to 4 seconds? Or what about when the next tier is out and Holy Paladins have to re-adjust to Holy Shock going back up to 6 seconds? But let's get even closer to the topic at hand. What about Holy's current PVP 4 piece bonus?
Holy's current PVP 4 pc bonus is very near the same thing that I suggested. The subtle difference of maintaining 1 HP as opposed to gaining 1 HP when casting a 3 HP spell was added to help alleviate the punishment of starting a battle without Inquisition up. Since TV requires 3 HP, and I suggested Ret WoGs also require 3 HP with the change, it would effectively be the exact same thing, but sacrificing 1 and 2 HP WoGs for the ability to be rid of those windows of no Inquisition at the start of a battle or if it falls off during CC. And since initial 3 HP WoGs would be cast for what would have originally been 2 HP, all you would really be missing are 1 HP WoGs.

Holy's current PVP 4 pc bonus does exactly for them what the bonus I suggested would do for Ret. Gives more frequent access to 3 HP finishers. The funny thing is that Holy was already in great shape, while Rets were suffering from weak offensive pressure and healing.

So how is it that Holy Paladins are able to adapt to this change every time they swap between PVE and PVP (even if only when equipping those 4 pieces of PVP gear for the first time), but you seem so certain that Rets would somehow not be able to?

And again, rebalancing would have been a non-factor with how weak Ret was performing outside of CDs.

At this point however, we are seeing more and more positive changes for the spec and this debate has far outlived its purpose. It has been an entertaining challenge to try to support a concept that has so ardently been opposed. Thanks for the fun and here's hoping Rets get a fair shake in PVP with 5.2.
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