Stamina, more stamina?

90 Pandaren Monk
5255
Hey,
I'm still trying to get myself situated with gear and what not. Over the course of my travels i've inspected my fairshare of brewmaster monks to see what sorts of gear the grab and of everyone i've inspected they seem to gear far diffrently than me.

These other monks stack stamina, every gem is for stamina. They use the stam /dodge trinket, whilst i try to go for pure agi.

Should i be making the switch over to stamina?
Is there a health point that i want to achieve? (452.5k unbuffed right now)
Do i want those stam/dodge trinkets?

Thanks
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90 Pandaren Monk
9455
Generally no, Stam is bad unless you're doing Heroics (and even there, it's not the greatest). Stick with Agi > Haste > Crit. Keep a stam trinket handy for magic heavy fights, but in most instances, you want what is listed above.

All Stamina does for you is make your healthpool bigger and gives your healers more time to heal you. That's a more pressing matter in Heroics. In LFR/Normals, you won't be getting hit that hard, and it's better for you to not take that damage at all which you get by gemming for Agi, Haste, and Crit (once you're Hit and Exp capped, of course).
Edited by Meixie on 2/17/2013 6:56 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Monk
10730
Agi, while useful, is actually not a major concern. It does make guard and expel harm more effective as well as improving your initial aggro gen. I would think my current gemming and gearing is far more typical of a mid-geared tank.

Generally I shoot for hitcap>expertise cap>haste>crit>agi>>>>stam. It's not like stam is completely unimportant, but it is something that simply scales passively as you improve your gear.
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90 Pandaren Monk
4580
Your gear should give you more than enough stamina as is.

I am rolling with these stats for AskMrRobot and doing fine:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/25588164/amr_brm_weights.jpg
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15% exp>7.5% hit> Haste> Crit> all other stats.

You need to get to 15% exp as soon as you can.
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90 Pandaren Monk
3605
Generally no, Stam is bad unless you're doing Heroics (and even there, it's not the greatest). Stick with Agi > Haste > Crit. Keep a stam trinket handy for magic heavy fights, but in most instances, you want what is listed above.

All Stamina does for you is make your healthpool bigger and gives your healers more time to heal you. That's a more pressing matter in Heroics. In LFR/Normals, you won't be getting hit that hard, and it's better for you to not take that damage at all which you get by gemming for Agi, Haste, and Crit (once you're Hit and Exp capped, of course).


How exactly does agi haste n crit make it to where "not take that damage at all"?

Agi gives a tiny bit of dodge, but not enough to rely on for alot of dodge mitigation. Also helps crit a small amount which could lead to a *bit* more elusive brew stacks.

Haste makes for more energy regen which would make more chi and more purifying brew while still keeping shuffle up so definitely more damage avoided by wiping stagger more often.

And crit also helps elusive brew but still not that great of a boost (not like into 60 or 70% dodge).

Although there are no tank leathers (outside of raid token pieces), nor do we reforge into dodge/parry/mastery... i really don't see how gemming like a dps is good for tanking. Stamina oriented gemming's never let me down but that's not to say something else wouldn't work either. If it didn't work, i'm sure no one would be saying gem mostly haste, mostly agi, or mostly crit.

Far as the trinkets, unless they make mastery alot more valuable... i'd say go with the stamina dodge trinkets while tanking. There's quite a bit of health in the trinkets, and a healthy dodge proc or on use isn't bad for brew (or bear) tanks either.

=====================

And i guess i need to switch my two specs around ingame because armory makes it look like i'm a windwalker monk lol. I'm really brew main, just happens to be my '2nd' spec because this toon was originally mist only then picked up brew 2nd to start tanking, and needed a dps spec for those annoying dailies so that ended up my '1st' spec
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90 Blood Elf Monk
10730
02/18/2013 12:35 AMPosted by Theoldpanda
Stamina oriented gemming's never let me down but that's not to say something else wouldn't work either.


Why would you worry about stam when you're only halfway to the expertise cap?
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90 Pandaren Monk
13240
Stam is our weakest stat ASSUMING that you are not finding yourself in danger of being 2-shot constantly. It's a buffer stat, once you have enough, you ignore it. There's no magic number we can give you that is "enough", it's a comfort thing.

I never stacked stamina even when I first was raiding on this character after playing catchup with the guild who was a week or two ahead of me in progression. The only extra stam I use is the meta, cloak, and chest enchants because I feel they beat the other options for those slots. I've actually thought about using a different meta. I also go for stam gem bonuses simply because of the double budget for secondary stats on gems makes it worth it.
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90 Pandaren Monk
3140
Hey,
I'm still trying to get myself situated with gear and what not. Over the course of my travels i've inspected my fairshare of brewmaster monks to see what sorts of gear the grab and of everyone i've inspected they seem to gear far diffrently than me.

These other monks stack stamina, every gem is for stamina. They use the stam /dodge trinket, whilst i try to go for pure agi.

Should i be making the switch over to stamina?
Is there a health point that i want to achieve? (452.5k unbuffed right now)
Do i want those stam/dodge trinkets?

Thanks


Are you doing heroic raiding (progressively?) Or are you being 1-shot by the boss? If you answer no, then you don't need anymore stamina.

There's not a health point you want. Fully buffed I have 500k health (that's with food). You want haste/agility.

15% exp>7.5% hit> Haste> Crit> all other stats.

You need to get to 15% exp as soon as you can.
Not having 15% isn't the end of the world and you will not die instantly. 15% is guaranteed Chi generation and is pure choice. A full night of raiding (that's 3 hours for me) I had a grand total of 26 KS parries. I never noticed. That is on average. It is sometimes a little less and sometimes a little more. I rarely notice it.

Agi gives a tiny bit of dodge, but not enough to rely on for alot of dodge mitigation. Also helps crit a small amount which could lead to a *bit* more elusive brew stacks.
Crit scales really well. So it's not just "a bit", it's actually very noticeable.

02/18/2013 12:35 AMPosted by Theoldpanda
i really don't see how gemming like a dps is good for tanking.
Then you do not understand how this class works mechanically. Everything we do is based off the damage of our weapons (speed does not matter) and our AP. Everything. Our Guard? Scales like crazy from AP. EH? AP. t30 talents? AP. GotO? AP. It's not the damage it's going to give you, but how it buffs (indirectly) your "defensive" (read: healing & absorbs) abilities. Stamina does nothing for how much they heal you, how big the absorb is, or how much damage your KS is going to do to something.

02/18/2013 12:35 AMPosted by Theoldpanda
Stamina oriented gemming's never let me down but that's not to say something else wouldn't work either.
Because this isn't BC or Wrath anymore. Stam stacking provides slightly more mitigation than mastery. But falls short compared to agility, haste, and crit.

02/18/2013 12:35 AMPosted by Theoldpanda
If it didn't work, i'm sure no one would be saying gem mostly haste, mostly agi, or mostly crit.
Get as much haste, agility, and crit as you can. Stamina is only useful if you need it to survive the hits.

To the OP- I wrote a pretty detailed guide on brewmasters, it would save you a lot of effort if you would take a few minutes and search through it to find what you're asking.

To those advocating 15% expertise- not having 15% is not as bad as the lot of you make it seem. It is reliable generation, but a parried KS isn't going to end your life. If you don't like to idea of not having it, that's totally understandable and is 100% a play-style decision, but 7.5% can and will get the job done so long as you're comfortable to reacting to some RNG.
Edited by Zegreiart on 2/21/2013 9:24 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Monk
10730
02/21/2013 09:23 AMPosted by Zegreiart
To those advocating 15% expertise- not having 15% is not as bad as the lot of you make it seem.


I tell you what, being able to guarantee you will have 2 chi instantly to guard or BoK with is pretty useful. I could draw up some sort of extraordinary circumstance to support it, but I won't.

If you are going to try for expertise at all, you may as well go for cap. No reason at all to stop halfway.

02/21/2013 09:23 AMPosted by Zegreiart
but a parried KS isn't going to end your life


It literally could.
Edited by Koneko on 2/21/2013 2:49 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
8930
I have to Agree with him TBH, I used to run at 15% Exp then I tried 7.5% while dumping more into Haste. While I do notice the occasional miss with KS and so on I can't say it has been significant enough to make any real difference.

If I was running harder content I might reconsider, but while only doing Normal raids if missing a KS is going to wipe you, I'd say you have bigger issues than not being at 15% exp.
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90 Pandaren Monk
3140
02/21/2013 02:47 PMPosted by Koneko
To those advocating 15% expertise- not having 15% is not as bad as the lot of you make it seem.


I tell you what, being able to guarantee you will have 2 chi instantly to guard or BoK with is pretty useful. I could draw up some sort of extraordinary circumstance to support it, but I won't.

If you are going to try for expertise at all, you may as well go for cap. No reason at all to stop halfway.

but a parried KS isn't going to end your life


It literally could.
This is some of the dumbest !@#$ I've had the misfortune of reading on this forum in a long time.

If you're in the kind of situation where you're absolutely that pressed to Guard or BoK, you have poor, no, absolutely terrible Chi/energy management and expertise capping is the very least of your worries.

You could draw up some silly claim, but it wouldn't help you.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
10730
This is some of the dumbest !@#$ I've had the misfortune of reading on this forum in a long time.

If you're in the kind of situation where you're absolutely that pressed to Guard or BoK, you have poor, no, absolutely terrible Chi/energy management and expertise capping is the very least of your worries.

You could draw up some silly claim, but it wouldn't help you.


Lol... u mad bro?

So.. you have solid expertise gems, meaning you want expertise, but aren't at the cap. Why would you stop at 7.53? Was that just a random number that it suddenly became less desirable for you to miss your KS's and Jabs? The point I was making is that if you go for expertise at all, you may as well cap it. It doesn't magically become less effective at 7.5
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90 Pandaren Monk
3140
At that point, my attacks can't be dodged. I couldn't care less about parries, because on the course of an average raid night around 3% of -all- my KSes are parried. It's not even noticeable.

So, by choice, I choose to dump the rest of those stats into haste. I get your point. And to me the other 7.5% is a waste of stats I could funnel into something else; which I choose to do.

So, if you would like to compare some parses, I'm all for it. Show me why I'd want to go for another 7.5% expertise. I've ran it. Ran it for a good long while (right when HoF was a big deal is when I decided to make the swap). Aside from the DPS increase, I didn't see the point, when I gained a nice chunk of haste, enough to break me at another 1 e/sec, and couldn't tell a difference.

It honestly sounds like you don't know why people bother stopping at 7.5% to begin with. It's not some magic number (spoiler alert: I gave it away when I mentioned dodge). And no one said anything about the effectiveness of it.

So, the point I'm making is that, if you don't feel like you need 15%, you just gave yourself a nice chunk of budget to work with. It doesn't magically affect your lifeline in a raid.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
10730
02/21/2013 08:08 PMPosted by Zegreiart
At that point, my attacks can't be dodged. I couldn't care less about parries, because on the course of an average raid night around 3% of -all- my KSes are parried. It's not even noticeable.


In your current gear on raid bosses 7.47 percent of your ks's are parried. Same for your jabs. Same for your BoKs. So you want to remove dodges but not parries? why? Did dodges touch you in a bad spot? You secretly have a man-crush on parries? There's 15 percent combined dodge and parry chance. Once you run out of dodge you begin to eliminate parry. 7.5 means nothing. There's no reason to stop at it. None.

Now, don't misunderstand. I never once said that you must cap expertise. I said having guaranteed chi generation is "nice". You can certainly work around the issue by pooling chi and such if you wish. It means RNG can screw you over slightly easier /shrug. No big deal.

The way I personally see it is; haste gives me more of one thing: jab. Jab is the lowest thing on the totem pole, used to prevent energy capping. Haste does not make keg smash come back quicker. Haste does not make power strikes come back quicker. It gives you more jab.

I can make plenty of arguments why you should cap expertise, and try to math things out, but I won't, because that wasn't my goal. All I was saying is 7.5 expertise means nothing. There's nothing special about it. The first 7.5 percent is exactly as useful as the next 7.5 percent. It makes no sense to me personally to actually put in expertise gems and enchants, and then just stop at 7.5. Going from a pally in Cata who valued mastery over everything including hit and expertise, maybe that's just a personal pet peeve of mine.
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90 Pandaren Monk
8930
I'm afraid if you think " haste gives me more of one thing: jab. "then you are seriously underestimating what Haste does for you. But you seem pretty set in not listening to another viewpoint so I won't bother trying.
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....why would a tank want haste, crit, and general DPS stats....damage isn't your main priority when you are a tank, staying alive is. >_>
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As a BrM Monk, critical effects our stacks of Elusive Brew. The more we Crit, the more stacks we get. It directly effects our survivabilty in that regard.

Elusive Brew
Instant
Requires level 1
Your autoattack critical strikes grant up to 3 charges of Elusive Brew, based on weapon speed. Use Elusive Brew to consume the charges.

Elusive Brew can stack up to 15 times.
Edited by Cixi on 2/23/2013 12:44 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
17775
02/22/2013 10:57 PMPosted by Kenshimoo
....why would a tank want haste, crit, and general DPS stats....damage isn't your main priority when you are a tank, staying alive is. >_>


Haste gives us more energy regen which allows us to keep chi generation high which is our lifeline for Staying alive. (keeping shuffle / guard up)

Crit as mentioned above helps with our stacks of elusive brew which also directly effects our ability to stay alive.

The tricky part is trinkets and that really is determined by what type of fight your doing (high magic dmg fight vs physical fight).

One thing i dont get is...
[quote="79794099124"] There's 15 percent combined dodge and parry chance. Once you run out of dodge you begin to eliminate parry. 7.5 means nothing. There's no reason to stop at it. None.


So for people that feel that haste gets weighted more once you reduce your chance for attacks to be parry/dodged from 15% to 7.5% means nothing? Way i see it you reduced your chance abilities would miss by 1/2 and if they feel 7.5% chance for KS to miss is ok then whats wrong with that?

p.s. tanking/dps is my offspec so i use same gear for both so if you want to flame my spec/stats atm thats fine not worth my time maxing it for one or the other, right now but with 5.2 i might not be a viable Healer so we will see
Edited by Zexualharas on 2/23/2013 2:23 PM PST
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So for people that feel that haste gets weighted more once you reduce your chance for attacks to be parry/dodged from 15% to 7.5% means nothing? Way i see it you reduced your chance abilities would miss by 1/2 and if they feel 7.5% chance for KS to miss is ok then whats wrong with that?

p.s. tanking/dps is my offspec so i use same gear for both so if you want to flame my spec/stats atm thats fine not worth my time maxing it for one or the other, right now but with 5.2 i might not be a viable Healer so we will see


Reducing the standard chance to be dodged/parried (which are basically the same thing now that bosses dont have parry haste) by half is a big deal, but the remaining 7.5% chance is still a big deal also. At lower levels of gear where haste (even dumping anything you have above 7.5% exp into haste) is still not high enough to ensure enough chi to keep your buffs up, having more exp is clearly the way to go. Personally when i was gearing as a tank (have since switched to dps as my os) getting to the exp cap helped me stay alive and made my life alot easier, as I geared up and got more haste being at the exp cap was less necessary because of the extra energy i had. KS and jab both cost the same amount of energy. Missing a KS means that i can hit jab right after but i only generated 1 chi instead of 2. At higher haste levels (4-6k) it wouldnt affect much as you would regen enough energy to jab again quickly, at lower haste levels however that miss could mean you die.

Big boss ability is coming, KS to guard.... parried... Oh @#*$ i dont have the chi to use guard now bc i dont have time to jab and wait for 40 energy to jab again. yes, healers could use a cd and save me but at the cost of a cd that may be planned for a specific point in a fight or at the cost of extra mana that they shouldnt have to spend.

TL:DR - exp cap is a good idea at lower haste levels but not as big of a deal once you have some raid gear and a decent amount of haste.
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