Holy Pally - Crit?

90 Night Elf Druid
12530
So here's my question...first off I'm not viewing this as a "race" but I recently joined what I would personally claim to be a "hardcore" guild that has quite a few of the bosses on heroic farm, with my hpally main. Joining this guild was a big step up for me and i've been going over forums because I just want to feel like I am pulling my weight. Now I know the people I am healing with outgear me and that makes a difference but I want to make sure I am doing the best that I can through stats and gemming/reforging etc. I generally tend towards haste >mastery > crit as far as those stats go but I've been looking at some of the hpallies in the "high end guilds" who go mostly with straight mastery. I was Going to switch what I have to mastery until I talked to a friend who pointed out that I am running with two very powerful disc priests and there's no way Id be able to beat their bubbles, so I should stick with the haste build......
All of that rambling and here's my question...
How is it running a crit/haste build? And even if I try that out to try to boost my overall output and HPS...where do you draw the line? Reforge what into what...reforge mastery into haste and then just gem/chant crit or vice versa...
Idk if this made sense lol...im Definitely not a number cruncher so any tips and or thoughts would help!! <3
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90 Gnome Monk
9940
So here's my question...first off I'm not viewing this as a "race" but I recently joined what I would personally claim to be a "hardcore" guild that has quite a few of the bosses on heroic farm, with my hpally main. Joining this guild was a big step up for me and i've been going over forums because I just want to feel like I am pulling my weight. Now I know the people I am healing with outgear me and that makes a difference but I want to make sure I am doing the best that I can through stats and gemming/reforging etc. I generally tend towards haste >mastery > crit as far as those stats go but I've been looking at some of the hpallies in the "high end guilds" who go mostly with straight mastery. I was Going to switch what I have to mastery until I talked to a friend who pointed out that I am running with two very powerful disc priests and there's no way Id be able to beat their bubbles, so I should stick with the haste build......
All of that rambling and here's my question...
How is it running a crit/haste build? And even if I try that out to try to boost my overall output and HPS...where do you draw the line? Reforge what into what...reforge mastery into haste and then just gem/chant crit or vice versa...
Idk if this made sense lol...im Definitely not a number cruncher so any tips and or thoughts would help!! <3

As long as discs are in their current state it really doesn't matter how you gear lol ><

Once 5.2 comes spirit shell is seeing big nerfs so at that point it may matter.
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90 Human Paladin
6035
derp one and derp two
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90 Human Paladin
13405
Short answer: go mastery
Long answer: gooooo maaasssterrrrryyy
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
13010
Mastery, until you can be over 25% Crit raid buffed. Then, you can decide.

You can't really go wrong with Spirit/Mastery for the forseeable future, though.

Riôt
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90 Human Paladin
4140
Are you trolling?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
Eon
11780
Go mastery
Go mastery
Go mastery
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Actually, in all the reading I've seen I haven't seen any mathematical justification, only stating that mastery is good (which leads me to believe that it might have been created by people that are just fans of the playstyle).

Riot you stated you need to wait until 25% crit, can you provide a reason for this? I'd like to see some math that would support this.
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90 Tauren Paladin
12145
Mastery because it helps conserve mana. Aside from the heal, it provides a shield, and allows a buffer to get other heals to that target. The more mastery you have, the better the buffer you provide. Now, if you find people are dying before you are able to get your heals off then maybe you will want to look into gaining more haste.

The problem with crit is that it is based off of RNG which just unpredictable. There is a build where you can stack crit and use the Glyph of Illumination which reduces your passive regen but will work after a certain amount of crit is reached. I don't have the math on the numbers for that build but they have been calculated. I'd locate them but I'm on my phone and am too lazy. :P
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90 Draenei Paladin
10900
Actually, in all the reading I've seen I haven't seen any mathematical justification, only stating that mastery is good (which leads me to believe that it might have been created by people that are just fans of the playstyle).

Riot you stated you need to wait until 25% crit, can you provide a reason for this? I'd like to see some math that would support this.


The reason that HPallys are running with straight mastery is because Haste is not beneficial for our healing. The only thing that haste does is decrease our cast time (and it takes a crap ton to do that worth using) and at 1936 it gives our Eternal Flame another tick. With our fixed mana pools, the only thing Haste is guaranteed to do, is oom us faster.

Mastery on the other hand buffs all of our heals and provides us with absorb shields. Raid buffed, my Mastery bubbles a player for 36% of my heal and then continues to stack if I continue to heal them, converting a percentage of my over healing into an absorb shield. I've had 200k shields prepped on my tanks before the pull.

With 20% haste, a 100k 2.1s heal would hit for 100k. A second 100k 2.1s heal would hit for 100k.
With 20% mastery, a 100k 2.1s heal would hit for 100k AND give a 20k absorb shield that lasts 12s. A second 100k 2.1s heal would hit for 100k, refresh your 20k shield (if its still there) and stack a 20k shield on your 20k shield giving you a 40k shield.

The math is very rudimentary, but the idea behind it is still the same.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
13010
02/17/2013 11:12 AMPosted by Röthtwo
Riot you stated you need to wait until 25% crit, can you provide a reason for this? I'd like to see some math that would support this.


Sorry for the delay - Roth, you should know that you won't get any reason from me based in math, because when it comes to healing in a team environment, the math just doesn't matter. I know the math is important to you, though, so I will try to answer as best I can.

Paladins (and Disc Priests) have Mastery that is an absorb. Crit potentially makes every single one of these stronger. Crit early in an expansion is not worth pursuing, because you really can't stack enough to make a difference. We are getting close to the point where both Paladins, and Disc Priests, can make the choice to push Crit because they can get to a level where it starts to become comparable to our Masteries. On a side note, I would push the poop out of Crit as a HoT class, too, if I had the option. Who cares about an extra tick on HoT's that get sniped? I would rather the ones that don't get sniped be potentially stronger. That's just me, but I don't have any unbridled fear regarding *RNG* when it comes to healing in a team. I often wonder how these people who don't like *RNG* deal with the randomness that happens in pretty much every raid, which throws all of their careful preparation out the window? :)

25% is my current personal benchmark, raid buffed. That said, I pushed Crit when I was 21-22% raid buffed, but Infusion of Light was a different (better) animal at that time. I use 25% because of things I have noticed both while playing this game, and raiding hard modes, that apply to both DPS, and Healing. Take a look at your DP (since I looked, and you do use it), and ask yourself how low that % could go before you would take something else. (Another side note, that is probably going to get nerfed to like 15% in the future). I would not use DP at anything less than 20%, personally. You have some experience with it, and the other two CD's in that talent tier are quite nice, so why are you using the *RNG* DP? The answer, is that 25% is a tipping point for a number of things in this game that I would have a really hard time describing, but if you take a look at what overall Crit rates generally cap out at post-Wrath, hopefully you'll see what I'm getting at.

Some might call this post anecdotal, and in some ways, they are right. That's fine. I heal in this game, and make my healing choices, based on what I observe to actually be happening, not math in a vaccuum.

Riôt
Edited by Riôt on 2/18/2013 7:16 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
3845
Our mastery essential increases our healing by x%. With my own buffs, I'm at 31% mastery. So All of my heals, give an extra 31% in as an absorption shield. I feel with infusion of light, we really don't need haste to make our spells cast faster. We also have a lot of insta casts anyway. Crit (as stated above) would help increase the effectiveness of our mastery, as well as grant more infusion procs.
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100 Human Paladin
18465
I'm going to be different and tell you to proceed to mastery
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
VEX
10945
Mastery doesn't do anything different now than it did in Cata, but Haste was superior then. The reason has to do with HPS vs HPM. You get a better, more reliable return on your mana with mastery than haste, but in Cata, mana just didn't matter the same way it does now. Mastery stackers coming to the forums in Cata tended to get chased out as heretics (and rightly so).

Crit is RNG based. I've seen no math to suggest that Crit will provide the same sort of throughput or mana longevity as Mastery. Mastery also tends to be allocated to less over-healing, since your shield's life can be extended greatly with Eternal Flame. Crit, on the other hand, can yield a lot of wasted healing. It may prove awesome on the occasional high burst fight, but even that puts you in the hands of a lot of favorable RNG. I can't think of any world where even, predictable healing wouldn't be preferred to spikey, unreliable healing unless the spikey, unreliable healing througput was significantly higher. In as far as I am aware, crit doesn't provide significant throughput increases over the other stats, if it provides any increases at all.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
14910
02/19/2013 10:25 AMPosted by Verbosity
Mastery stackers coming to the forums in Cata tended to get chased out as heretics (and rightly so).


Wasn't that just because Mastery shields didn't stack and kept getting overwritten by weaker stuff until like mid expansion? Crit was still 150% and didn't really offer much other than extra overheal and a few more IoL procs, so I always thought Haste kind of was just the lesser of 3 evils.
Edited by Nixxin on 2/19/2013 10:50 AM PST
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100 Human Paladin
12950
Mastery doesn't do anything different now than it did in Cata, but Haste was superior then. The reason has to do with HPS vs HPM. You get a better, more reliable return on your mana with mastery than haste, but in Cata, mana just didn't matter the same way it does now. Mastery stackers coming to the forums in Cata tended to get chased out as heretics (and rightly so).

Crit is RNG based. I've seen no math to suggest that Crit will provide the same sort of throughput or mana longevity as Mastery. Mastery also tends to be allocated to less over-healing, since your shield's life can be extended greatly with Eternal Flame. Crit, on the other hand, can yield a lot of wasted healing. It may prove awesome on the occasional high burst fight, but even that puts you in the hands of a lot of favorable RNG. I can't think of any world where even, predictable healing wouldn't be preferred to spikey, unreliable healing unless the spikey, unreliable healing througput was significantly higher. In as far as I am aware, crit doesn't provide significant throughput increases over the other stats, if it provides any increases at all.


This^

I loved haste, but like this post says mana didn't truly matter in Cata. To a point it did, but not so much that any pally even had to reforge/gem spirit. Now pallys almost HAVE to reforge/gem some spirit, at least with decent gear. Maybe if you have Higher level gear your spirit is fine with a few reforges/gems. And normally every pally would go for haste and ignore mastery altogether.

But now it does help to have mastery. Haste just isn't worth it in general. However I still stick with the fact that haste would beat out mastery no matter what.

Casting 3 heals in the time it takes to cast 2 for haste would still beat mastery. Simply because you're getting THREE mastery effects over two, in the same time. However, you will go OOM quicker now from those three heals. So the buffer the 2 mastery heals provides helps.

Crit, I just don't care for crit simply because I almost only use crit for Infusion of light, and holy shock get's a 25% increased chance to crit as it is. I crit plenty and get infusion of light without extra crit.

So: MASTERY
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16150
Haste does two things. Makes you go OOM faster, and gives you a chance of not getting sniped on heals.

Mastery gives you "bigger" heals via absorbs (even if you are sniped), and doesn't matter what your cast time is.

Mastery is going to come out ahead every time, assuming your group/raid is taking damage. If they aren't taking damage, neither matters. If they are taking so much damage that you "
have to have" haste to keep up, you'll run out of mana before you can be effective anyways.

Haste is truly great when you have "unlimited" mana pools (or infinitely scaling). Mastery shines when you don't.
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
Super oversimplified math on why you should Mastery > Crit
600 crit is 1%. Going from 20% crit to 21% crit means:
100*[(1*0.79+2.06*0.21)/(1*0.80+2.06*0.20)-1] = 0.87% Healing Increase

600 mastery is 1.5%. Going from 30% mastery to 31.5% mastery means:
100*[1.315/1.30-1] = 1.15% healing increaese

The only real variables as a pally are:
Infusion of Light
Mastery overheal/falloff% vs Crit overheal%

I would go mastery, more disc priests just means that people are morelikely to be topped off when you land AoE heals on them while healing players that had the Spirit Shells eaten already. When that happens your only effective healing on the over-SpiritShelled is from illuminated healing... and Mastery will provide a bigger bump to that than crit.
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Soooo i just want to be clear....Did we decide as paladin healers that mastery was good then?

lol...this was a fun thread.
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90 Human Paladin
7775
Intellect > spirit > mastery > haste > crit.
Gear has crit but no spirit? Reforge crit to spirit.
Gear has haste but no mastery? Reforge haste to mastery.

Once you have mana regen that you're comfortable with, start prioritizing mastery.

You should have the idea of our stat priority now.

Mastery is a huge chunk of a Holy Paladins healing. It's honestly my top heal on every boss encounter. Our absorbs may not be huge and mitigate huge raid wide damage as say a disc priests, but our absorb definitely makes a difference especially when say a tank is taking spike damage and is about to die. It gives us a little bit more time to heal them up.
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