Undead Paladins. Why not?

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90 Human Death Knight
13050
Warlocks =/= demon hunters. Night elves kill those of their race that try to become warlocks. They however, do NOT kill demon hunters.


At this point in time, Warlocks might as well be Demon Hunters... since they pretty much have nearly every single ability that Demon Hunters used to have. In fact, one of the core people they learned new powers from was Illidan. Their motif is fight fire with fire, which used to be what Demon Hunters were all about, as well.

They even have a glyph called Demon Hunting and access to transmogrifiable Demon Hunter garb.

No.You're wrong. Night elven warlocks aren't shunned. They are [killed. There was a quest in classic Desolace where you had to rescue a female night elf. She had gone to Desolace with her brother to study something there, but he tricked her and ran off to the Burning Blade to learn how to be a warlock. The woman, his sister, was tied up. She gives you a quest to kill him because she doesn't want him to become a warlock. It's seen as the ultimate evil to be. Demon hunters on the other hand are just shunned because of what they do. Night elven society recognizes the sacrifice they make, but are very uncomfortable with it so the demon hunters are loners and roam the outskirts of kaldorei society.


Maybe that Night Elf was executed because he joined the Burning Blade rather than because he became a Warlock? The Burning Blade are considered an evil group, and he wouldn't need to join them at all if he wanted to know how to become a Warlock.

I'm also pretty sure that Varian would back up the admittance of Night Elf Warlocks, provided they are trustworthy and mean to serve the cause of the Alliance... rather than rogue groups that used to serve the Legion.
Edited by Grimtale on 2/19/2013 10:29 PM PST
94 Goblin Warlock
9210
02/19/2013 06:28 PMPosted by Leung
There is no single paladin out there who wouldn't consider the Forsaken a serious threat.

There's no indication that the Sunwalkers or Blood Knights feel that way. The Crusade certainly doesn't either.

No.You're wrong. Night elven warlocks aren't shunned. They are [killed. There was a quest in classic Desolace where you had to rescue a female night elf. She had gone to Desolace with her brother to study something there, but he tricked her and ran off to the Burning Blade to learn how to be a warlock. The woman, his sister, was tied up. She gives you a quest to kill him because she doesn't want him to become a warlock. It's seen as the ultimate evil to be. Demon hunters on the other hand are just shunned because of what they do. Night elven society recognizes the sacrifice they make, but are very uncomfortable with it so the demon hunters are loners and roam the outskirts of kaldorei society.

This is a poor example because you're talking about the burning blade.

Everyone kills people affiliated with the burning blade, even the races that tolerate warlocks.
Edited by Leviathan on 2/19/2013 11:10 PM PST
100 Night Elf Hunter
6150
Maybe that Night Elf was executed because he joined the Burning Blade rather than because he became a Warlock? The Burning Blade are considered an evil group, and he wouldn't need to join them at all if he wanted to know how to become a Warlock.

I'm also pretty sure that Varian would back up the admittance of Night Elf Warlocks, provided they are trustworthy and mean to serve the cause of the Alliance... rather than rogue groups that used to serve the Legion.


This is a poor example because you're talking about the burning blade.

Everyone kills people affiliated with the burning blade, even the races that tolerate warlocks.


No. The quest was specific. He was killed because he was trying to be a warlock. Not because of the group he joined, but because he wanted to be a warlock. His own sister had him killed because of that desire. For the Night elves to allow warlocks among their own race would be another gut punch in their lore. They barely tolerate mages among their people now. Warlocks would be kill on sight.

At this point in time, Warlocks might as well be Demon Hunters... since they pretty much have nearly every single ability that Demon Hunters used to have. In fact, one of the core people they learned new powers from was Illidan. Their motif is fight fire with fire, which used to be what Demon Hunters were all about, as well.

They even have a glyph called Demon Hunting and access to transmogrifiable Demon Hunter garb.


Only because Blizzard has !@#$ed the lore with a telephone pole for the last several years. The lore is clear in how demon hunters and warlocks are received in Kaldorei society. Demon hunters are tolerated, but shunned to a great degree because they hunt and kill demons. That's what they do. Warlocks are outright killed because they consort with demons, make deals and work with them.

The recent changes to demonology to make them look like Illidan and such is just that. To think that you have to be a warlock to be a demon hunter is asinine and stupid. If demon hunters are going to be in the game, they will be their own class. If Blizzard somehow makes them a part of the warlock class (rewriting the demonology spec completely) then the race that were the quintessential demon hunters would be cut out of being demon hunters since Night elves cannot be warlocks. And to allow them to be warlocks is a further screwing over of aleast thin Night elven lore.
Edited by Kynrind on 2/19/2013 11:55 PM PST
90 Human Death Knight
13050
No. The quest was specific. He was killed because he was trying to be a warlock. Not because of the group he joined, but because he wanted to be a warlock. His own sister had him killed because of that desire. For the Night elves to allow warlocks among their own race would be another gut punch in their lore. They barely tolerate mages among their people now. Warlocks would be kill on sight.


She had him killed because he tried to kill her, and because she doesn't understand that it's not because he became a Warlock but where he put his loyalties. She's also quite likely a more superstitious example of her race, rather than a more educated individual who understands the complexities of people. It's the same reason why Farmer Joe Bob down the street thinks my Death Knight is a scumbag even though he doesn't know my character that well or understands why he does what he does. But hey, just because he's a Death Knight he must be secretly working for the Scourge, right?

But regardless of that, it's not really for them to judge but what the rest of the Alliance would think. I don't think it would be out of left field for some Highborne to take interest in demonic magic and have the other Alliance nations back them on it if it means to be a further valuable tool against fighting more threats.

02/19/2013 11:54 PMPosted by Kynrind
Only because Blizzard has !@#$ed the lore with a telephone pole for the last several years. The lore is clear in how demon hunters and warlocks are received in Kaldorei society. Demon hunters are tolerated, but shunned to a great degree because they hunt and kill demons. That's what they do. Warlocks are outright killed because they consort with demons, make deals and work with them.


I disagree. Warlocks and Demon Hunters share an incredible amount of similarities for this to not be a long time coming. The only thing Warlocks didn't have covered was the aspect of stealth, and hit and run tactics... but then again even a caster probably has to have a good understanding of knowing when to hit and when to run against an opponent.

Also I need you to provide sources that Warlocks are being killed on sight by Night Elves. As far as I know they're incorporated into the Alliance against Horde threats, as proven by Tides of War, and the Night Elves have not openly expressed any objection to it. You are lumping Warlocks who serve the Alliance and Warlocks who serve more evil factions into the same group.

It also certainly doesn't stop Warlock players from doing quests in places like Ashenvale and Hyjal... and Darkshore even has a Warlock trainer in it.

The recent changes to demonology to make them look like Illidan and such is just that. To think that you have to be a warlock to be a demon hunter is asinine and stupid. If demon hunters are going to be in the game, they will be their own class. If Blizzard somehow makes them a part of the warlock class (rewriting the demonology spec completely) then the race that were the quintessential demon hunters would be cut out of being demon hunters since Night elves cannot be warlocks. And to allow them to be warlocks is a further screwing over of aleast thin Night elven lore.


If you say so. I think it's a cool way to make Demon Hunters seem like they're already playable again.

That's why I advocate Night Elf Warlocks myself. It would be the easiest solution and would add more interesting concepts to the Night Elves' currently stagnant Lore.
Edited by Grimtale on 2/20/2013 1:07 AM PST
58 Undead Death Knight
120
02/20/2013 01:04 AMPosted by Grimtale
That's why I advocate Night Elf Warlocks myself. It would be the easiest solution and would add more interesting concepts to the Night Elves' currently stagnant Lore.


More random filler crap isn't what Night Elves need. The Elune worship and Sentinel part of the culture is barely explored, ever, and that's the main part.
90 Human Death Knight
13050
02/20/2013 01:09 AMPosted by Gandred
More random filler crap isn't what Night Elves need. The Elune worship and Sentinel part of the culture is barely explored, ever, and that's the main part.


It's not random filler crap, it's pure awesomeness being unsealed from a can.

And nowhere did I advocate it to impede on the development the whole Sentinel/Elune stuff, ideally it honestly shouldn't.
58 Undead Death Knight
120
02/20/2013 01:13 AMPosted by Grimtale
And nowhere did I advocate it to impede on the development the whole Sentinel/Elune stuff, ideally it honestly shouldn't.


But it would. It would be what has happened to the Alliance all over again, but within the Night Elf faction. More filler is added, so other stuff barely gets touched on and other things are completely forgotten. Druidism has already dominated the majority of Night Elf lore, when it's not the biggest part of their culture, I don't want this to be exacerbated.
90 Human Death Knight
13050
02/20/2013 01:30 AMPosted by Gandred
But it would. It would be what has happened to the Alliance all over again, but within the Night Elf faction. More filler is added, so other stuff barely gets touched on and other things are completely forgotten. Druidism has already dominated the majority of Night Elf lore, when it's not the biggest part of their culture, I don't want this to be exacerbated.


No it wouldn't, can you honestly tell me that the new race/class combos that we've gotten in Cataclysm has done anything to impede on the overall story of the races? In fact with some races, they've done just the opposite, and have added to them to make them less stagnant.

Yes, I know combos like Tauren Paladins could use more development, but it's getting there.
58 Undead Death Knight
120
02/20/2013 01:41 AMPosted by Grimtale
No it wouldn't, can you honestly tell me that the new race/class combos that we've gotten in Cataclysm has done anything to impede on the overall story of the races? In fact with some races, they've done just the opposite, and have added to them to make them less stagnant.


You said you want warlocks to be made playable on Night Elves to fix the currently stagnant Night Elf lore. I say they capitalise on the already existing lore that never gets used to it's potential.
90 Human Death Knight
13050
02/20/2013 01:44 AMPosted by Gandred
You said you want warlocks to be made playable on Night Elves to fix the currently stagnant Night Elf lore. I say they capitalise on the already existing lore that never gets used to it's potential.


No, re-read my post.

02/20/2013 01:04 AMPosted by Grimtale
It would be the easiest solution and would add more interesting concepts to the Night Elves' currently stagnant Lore.


I said it would only 'add' more interesting concepts, not really fix. I'm guessing you got that from me saying "easiest solution" but what I meant by that was it would sate the desires of fans who want to have a sort of playable Demon Hunter. (Although I guess they'd never truly be satisfied unless Warlocks were ever allowed to dual wield glaives.)
90 Orc Warrior
10290
No they can't. We've seen what the Forsaken do to people who try to leave in the Rotbrains (who were killed simply for organizing) and we've also seen the Forsaken kill people who try to flee to the Alliance.

The Ask Cdev answers also say that when the Forsaken raise a new undead, they don't give it the option to leave. It's either join or die.

Whatever "choice" they get is a fake choice.


Which is why there are Forsaken members in the Argent Crusade? And they have yet to be killed for it?
Edited by Lochnar on 2/20/2013 3:54 AM PST
90 Blood Elf Monk
13115
To the OP.
The reason why undeads can't become paladin are:

1. They are forsakens, and any dead body/corpse of dead paladin or champions of the Alliance before the Scourge invasion and those who fell during that time were moved to Light's Hope Chapel. This was the reason why Arthas wanted to take the place.

2. The light channels through the body of the paladin unlike that of priest, and lorewise undead priest rarely use holy magic.

Re-guarding chi and Taurens; chi is not the light and Taurens are a live so they can use the light even though their form of the light is different from the Humans. The light comes in many forms and as long as 1 of those form is warship, the light's power can be blessed upon them.

Undead's can still regain the light, but it won't be a fun class to play when you lose health over time, lose health to heal others, to do damage, and can't use your healing spells to heal yourself.
Edited by Suwukong on 2/20/2013 4:00 AM PST
100 Undead Warlock
10350
Which is why there are Forsaken members in the Argent Crusade? And they have yet to be killed for it?


Wasn't the two choice ''join or die'' for battle raised Forsaken? Pretty counter productive for your recently raised undead to join the Alliance during the battle.

Outside of battle, they would recieve the three choice ''join, die or leave'' choice.
85 Undead Warrior
9545
I'd also think the Forsaken would lose their connection to the Light. Paladins are infused with holy energy 24/7, right? Wouldn't being dead and reanimated through necromancy sever that bond?
No, actually, being dead does not sever this bond in the slightest. Sir Zeliek, one of the Lich Kings soldiers, is still very much in touch with the light.

Wasn't the two choice ''join or die'' for battle raised Forsaken? Pretty counter productive for your recently raised undead to join the Alliance during the battle.

Outside of battle, they would recieve the three choice ''join, die or leave'' choice.
Beginning zone pretty much emphasizes this, the Forsaken do have a choice on whether new members can join up, kill themselves, or just go away.

The Rotbrains were rallying against the Forsaken, if memory serves. Hence their destruction.

It should be pointed out that a ghost paladin is not the same thing as a corporeal undead paladin.
An undead paladin is not the same thing as an undead paladin? News to me.

Is there any reasoning beyond their corporeality?

Edit: Actually, a closer look at Springvale, and his abilities are rather unholy at the moment. So he's not really a valid candidate either way.

02/20/2013 03:58 AMPosted by Suwukong
Undead's can still regain the light, but it won't be a fun class to play when you lose health over time, lose health to heal others, to do damage, and can't use your healing spells to heal yourself.
The thing is, they don't actually take damage from using the Light. It hurts, but it won't kill them. Blizzard stated this in the CDevs, hence why Forsaken and Death Knight tanks "suffer nobly" when they are healed by the light.

There'd be no need to include such a thing in game mechanics.
Edited by Rothiron on 2/20/2013 9:20 AM PST
58 Undead Death Knight
120
Why do some Alliance soldiers raised by the Forsaken immediately become loyal to the Forsaken while others do not? Are they being mind controlled? If so, by whom - Sylvanas or the Val'kyr? How does this relate to the fact that the Forsaken cultural identity is based on their free will and rebellion against the Lich King?

Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave.


All Forsaken are given the same choice, apparently.
02/18/2013 08:15 AMPosted by Grimauna
Sir Zeliak of the Four Horsemen and Leonid Barthalomew.


Sir Zeliek of the Four Horsemen is an extremely rare case where the Lich King could reanimate his body, but his soul was not bound to it or the Lich King, and instead, was able to still channel his own holy light, albiet against his will and at his own dread, as he couldn't control himself, but was able to bear witness to it all.

Leonid Barthalomew is not a paladin. He is merely the Revered.

READ: NOT A PALADIN.

02/18/2013 10:21 AMPosted by Osiria
So you want to add a Shadow spec to Paladins right?


Sort of. But as I said, it would still remain with idea of light. Corrupted one, but still light. Shadow is totally opposite, so a pure one might not feel right.

Either way, I don't really see a problem with a Shadow spec there. Paladins are basically Priests in plate armor that learned combat skills. I just think Blizz might consider them a purely "light class" and not add a purely Shadow spec because "it won't fit".


They already exist hon.

They're called Death Knights, the opposite of Paladins.
Edited by Seebach on 2/20/2013 9:38 AM PST
100 Tauren Druid
8095
If death knights are the opposite of paladins, then every race should be able to be a paladin.

EDIT: This is assuming that to be a DK in the first place, you'd have had to have been a paladin. Therefore if trolls, gnomes, orcs, night elves, etc. can all be death knights, their former lives would have had to have been a paladin.
Edited by Hushkawnek on 2/20/2013 9:58 AM PST
25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Which is why there are Forsaken members in the Argent Crusade? And they have yet to be killed for it?


Are any of them ones raised by the Forsaken themselves?
100 Dwarf Warrior
18175
02/20/2013 09:54 AMPosted by Hushkawnek
This is assuming that to be a DK in the first place, you'd have had to have been a paladin.
This is not the case.
100 Night Elf Druid
14645
There's a difference between a priest and a paladin- a (holy) priest intermittently accesses the light. The paladin radiates it constantly. A Forsaken holy priest feels pain every time a spell is cast, but has a momentary respite when he's not doing so. A forsaken paladin would be in constant pain, and presumably, that constant pain is impossible for a self-aware Forsaken to maintain the requisite faith to use the light. It's the difference between using a match to set stuff on fire and being on fire all the time.

The only examples of undead paladins we have in the game are not self-aware, Zeliek and the Fallen Crusaders are all mind controlled by the lich king, and thus, their faith and willpower are artificially manipulated.
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