Undead Paladins. Why not?

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90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
02/18/2013 11:44 AMPosted by Vyrin
That said, they'd be the most logical race to give 'Paladin' to for the Horde, should Blizzard decide to hand out new classes to each faction once more.


The Alliance needs another Paladin race before they give another to the Horde.


Night Elf Moon Knights to mirror Tauren Sunwalkers.
100 Human Mage
19365
02/18/2013 11:43 AMPosted by Lucinthian
If that were so, there shouldn't be any NPC Forsaken Holy Priests.There are.Muerta, Champion of the Light, for example.

I meant more that it was the norm for them to be shadow. Yes holy priests do exist and have been shown in game. Even old UD priest questing talked a lot about serving the shadow and that our power came from it, but that you needed to learn to wield the light as well.

I always understood it to be that UD Holy priests were the societal exception, much like a Shadow Draenai.


That, I agree with: There are far more Shadow than Holy or Discipline priests among the Forsaken.

But to claim that a race/gender/class/spec combination only exists for "balance" (I assume you're referring to gameplay balance), when that combination is represented in the lore and is not specifically noted as unique to one character, is absurd.
02/18/2013 11:49 AMPosted by Gibbons
But to claim that a race/gender/class/spec combination only exists for "balance" (I assume you're referring to gameplay balance), when that combination is represented in the lore and is not specifically noted as unique to one character, is absurd

Correct, I probably should have put it a different way. I was trying to convey that they are pretty uncommon and that if spec representation followed the lore most undead would be shadow with a small minority being holy or disc.
If the Panderan's (A severe minority in both the Horde and the Alliance) and the few Monks they brought with them (making their minority even smaller) can spread their teachings to sufficient numbers of each race on both sides of the faction line to facilitate the Monk being a playable class race combo for all...

Then the existence of even a handful of Undead Paladins justifies the ability to play a Forsaken Paladin.
Edited by Brukk on 2/18/2013 12:09 PM PST
100 Human Mage
19365
Then the existence of even a handful of Undead Paladins justifies the ability to play a Forsaken Paladin.


And the existence of even a handful of undead paladins is debatable. The only one that we know of is Zeliek, and he's a special case. And he wasn't affiliated with the Forsaken anyway, so he had no opportunity to teach them anything, assuming that he had anything to teach.
Edited by Gibbons on 2/18/2013 12:15 PM PST
The fact is, by the current state of the lore in regards to its use by undead, how this occurs, and its effects, combined with the current lore surrounding the Val'kyr and their ressurrection of long dead corpses to fill Forsaken ranks throughout Lordaeron...

... it is not unreasonable to imply that one or two of these mass graves included one or two paladins each (many paladins were killed during the war with the Scourge).

Say, of maybe the twenty paladins raised by the Val'kyr... five of them took the opportunity at a second chance to defend their home and their people from aggressors, and therefore, joined the Forsaken.

These five trained others.

These others are the Forsaken Paladin player base.
90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
If the Panderan's (A severe minority in both the Horde and the Alliance) and the few Monks they brought with them (making their minority even smaller) can spread their teachings to sufficient numbers of each race on both sides of the faction line to facilitate the Monk being a playable class race combo for all...

Then the existence of even a handful of Undead Paladins justifies the ability to play a Forsaken Paladin.


The difference being that the monk culture is part of the entire pandaren culture. Not to mention we'll be dealing with monks, monk training, etc, for the entire length of pandaria.

Remember, Paladins were immune to the plague. So any and all Forsaken Paladins would've had to be raised by the Val'kyr during the Cataclysm, which puts it only a year before Pandaria.

We're not just talking about a 'fraction' here. We're talking about a fraction of an entire race, with a small window to be raised.

But again, I'm not objecting to it entirely.
02/18/2013 12:14 PMPosted by Gibbons
And the existence of even a handful of undead paladins is debatable. The only one that we know of is Zeliek, and he's a special case. And he wasn't affiliated with the Forsaken anyway, so he had no opportunity to teach them anything, assuming that he had anything to teach.


I had this discussion at least once before. I forget the research I did on it then, but I discovered and cited the existence of several in game representations of Undead Paladins who retain their Holy Powers after being raised.

I will attempt to find that post now and present it for your edification.

Give me a moment.
25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
02/18/2013 12:17 PMPosted by Brukk
I had this discussion at least once before. I forget the research I did on it then, but I discovered and cited the existence of several in game representations of Undead Paladins who retain their Holy Powers after being raised.


None of them actually choose to use their powers though; it's always the Lich King or some other compelling force that's making them do it.
02/18/2013 12:17 PMPosted by Melyria
Remember, Paladins were immune to the plague.


Common misconception and entirely false.

02/18/2013 12:17 PMPosted by Melyria
So any and all Forsaken Paladins would've had to be raised by the Val'kyr during the Cataclysm, which puts it only a year before Pandaria.


And if Monks can spread to every race in the game since Pandaria, the Forsaken could propagate their own Paladins since Cataclysm.

We're not just talking about a 'fraction' here. We're talking about a fraction of an entire race, with a small window to be raised.


Dwarf, Forsaken, Human, Orc, Night Elf, etc Monks.

If that is possible. So are Forsaken Paladins.
100 Human Paladin
19485
02/18/2013 11:41 AMPosted by Melyria
That said, they'd be the most logical race to give 'Paladin' to for the Horde, should Blizzard decide to hand out new classes to each faction once more.


Troll paladins would make far more sense than Forsaken paladins. They already have a precedent for their existence in the form of the Zandalari Freethinkers.

Paladins wouldn't fit into the culture of the orcs or the goblins in any way whatsoever... but even they'd make better paladins than the Forsaken. They wouldn't be in constant pain (to the point of being unable to function in combat), which is more than the hypothetical Forsaken paladins could say.
90 Pandaren Monk
9480
The amount of misinformation in this thread is ridiculous. Paladins and Priests are not the same in Warcraft. A priest taps into the light when needed. A Paladin is infused with the light 24/7. Undead priests that use the light are possible, there are just very few of them because of the amount of willpower they require just to tap into the light. An undead paladin would essentially feel as if he was on fire every moment of his existence.
... but even they'd make better paladins than the Forsaken.


I disagree entirely.

I think the Forsaken culture and the new direction of their lore compliments the existence of Forsaken Paladins very well.

02/18/2013 12:19 PMPosted by Egrem
They wouldn't be in constant pain


Which could be used as a bonus to their class, as far as the lore goes.

02/18/2013 12:19 PMPosted by Egrem
(to the point of being unable to function in combat)


But again, perhaps the Forsaken Paladin could view that pain as a religious experience.

A necessary cleansing of their bodies.

The pain of the sin of their failure for failing in their original duty in protecting their people against the Scourge when they still lived?

This is not confirmed by any sources in the Lore and is an assumption on your part.

02/18/2013 12:19 PMPosted by Egrem
which is more than the hypothetical Forsaken paladins could say.
100 Human Mage
19365
The fact is, by the current state of the lore in regards to its use by undead, how this occurs, and its effects, combined with the current lore surrounding the Val'kyr and their ressurrection of long dead corpses to fill Forsaken ranks throughout Lordaeron...

... it is not unreasonable to imply that one or two of these mass graves included one or two paladins each (many paladins were killed during the war with the Scourge).

Say, of maybe the twenty paladins raised by the Val'kyr... five of them took the opportunity at a second chance to defend their home and their people from aggressors, and therefore, joined the Forsaken.

These five trained others.

These others are the Forsaken Paladin player base.


Nothing of the sort has happened. If any of the bodies raised by the Val'kyr belonged to paladins, there is no evidence that they retained their Light-based abilities after being raised.
02/18/2013 12:19 PMPosted by Vyrin
None of them actually choose to use their powers though; it's always the Lich King or some other compelling force that's making them do it.


Perhaps in most cases, yes.

But that does not exclude the possibility that one might continue to use their powers due to personal strength of will.

If the will of outside forces can compel them... why not internal forces?
100 Human Paladin
19485
02/18/2013 12:15 PMPosted by Brukk
Say, of maybe the twenty paladins raised by the Val'kyr... five of them took the opportunity at a second chance to defend their home and their people from aggressors, and therefore, joined the Forsaken.


If those risen paladins truly wanted to defend their homeland from aggressors, joining the Forsaken would be the last thing on their minds. They'd turn on the Forsaken and try to wipe them out.

02/18/2013 12:19 PMPosted by Brukk
Remember, Paladins were immune to the plague.


Common misconception and entirely false.


"Death Knights were once virtuous defenders of Humanity. However, once the Paladin ranks were disbanded by the failing Alliance, many of these holy warriors traveled to the quarantined lands to ease the suffering of those left within the plague-ridden colonies. Though the Paladins were immune to disease of any kind, they were persecuted by the general populace who believed that they had been infected by the foul plague. A small band of Paladins, embittered by society's cruelty, traveled north to find the plague's source. These renegade Paladins succumbed to bitter hatred over the course of their grueling quest. When they finally reached Ner'zhul's icy fortress in Northrend they had become dark and brooding. The Lich King offered them untold power in exchange for their services and loyalty. The weary, vengeful warriors accepted his dark pact, and although they retained their humanity, their twisted souls were bound to his evil will for all time. Bestowed with black, vampiric Runeblades and shadowy steeds, Death Knights serve as the Scourge's mightiest generals."

http://classic.battle.net/war3/undead/units/deathknight.shtml
02/18/2013 12:22 PMPosted by Gibbons
Nothing of the sort has happened


No.

But it easily could.

I'm just considering the hypothetical possibility of it occurring.

Nothing more.

02/18/2013 12:22 PMPosted by Gibbons
If any of the bodies raised by the Val'kyr belonged to paladins, there is no evidence that they retained their Light-based abilities after being raised.


We have no evidence of the Val'kyr raising dead paladins, you are correct.

But we do have cases of other undead masters raising Paladins that retained their powers.

Meaning the state of Undeath is not mutually exclusive with being a Paladin.

So the possibility exists.
90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
02/18/2013 12:19 PMPosted by Egrem
They already have a precedent for their existence in the form of the Zandalari Freethinkers.


The quest that gives you the Freethinker Belt says that the very concepts of a Paladin are alien to them, that you're a heretic. Freethinkers are simply those that refused to worship Hakkar and stood against him.

I don't think there's enough to go off of unless we see said Freethinkers using Paladin skills in 5.2
100 Human Mage
19365
But we do have cases of other undead masters raising Paladins that retained their powers.


Such as...?

Just that (for example) the Lich King could do it doesn't mean that the Val'kyr could. The Lich King was much, much stronger than the Val'kyr, after all.
Edited by Gibbons on 2/18/2013 12:27 PM PST
25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
02/18/2013 12:23 PMPosted by Brukk
But that does not exclude the possibility that one might continue to use their powers due to personal strength of will.


It doesn't matter how strong your will is. If you set yourself on fire you aren't going to be able to do much aside from scream.

02/18/2013 12:22 PMPosted by Brukk
I think the Forsaken culture and the new direction of their lore compliments the existence of Forsaken Paladins very well.


There's absolutely nothing about Forsaken culture or their lore that would segue into Paladins. The direction of their lore, if you didn't notice, is that they're becoming the second Scourge. Blizzard has made the connection several times now.

Say, of maybe the twenty paladins raised by the Val'kyr... five of them took the opportunity at a second chance to defend their home and their people from aggressors, and therefore, joined the Forsaken.

These five trained others.


"Their home and people" is not the Forsaken and never was. Stop trying to shove this crap down our throats, nobody is buying it.
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