Undead Paladins. Why not?

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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
02/18/2013 12:24 PMPosted by Brukk
But we do have cases of other undead masters raising Paladins that retained their powers.


The Val'kyr are not undead masters. They can't even raise non-humans, what makes you think they'd be able to raise a fully-functioning Paladin?

And somehow I doubt that the Argents would take kindly to the Forsaken starting to raise Paladins even if they could.
Edited by Vyrin on 2/18/2013 12:27 PM PST
100 Human Mage
19365
And if there were undead paladins, they'd probably join the Argent Crusade anyway. From what Judkins says, allegiance to the Argent Crusade and allegiance to the Forsaken are mutually exclusive.
Edited by Gibbons on 2/18/2013 12:30 PM PST
If those risen paladins truly wanted to defend their homeland from aggressors, joining the Forsaken would be the last thing on their minds. They'd turn on the Forsaken and try to wipe them out.


That is a political opinion.

Not fact.

Perhaps these specific paladins are of a different political leaning than yourself?

Just a suggestion.

"Death Knights were once virtuous defenders of Humanity. However, once the Paladin ranks were disbanded by the failing Alliance, many of these holy warriors traveled to the quarantined lands to ease the suffering of those left within the plague-ridden colonies. Though the Paladins were immune to disease of any kind, they were persecuted by the general populace who believed that they had been infected by the foul plague. A small band of Paladins, embittered by society's cruelty, traveled north to find the plague's source. These renegade Paladins succumbed to bitter hatred over the course of their grueling quest. When they finally reached Ner'zhul's icy fortress in Northrend they had become dark and brooding. The Lich King offered them untold power in exchange for their services and loyalty. The weary, vengeful warriors accepted his dark pact, and although they retained their humanity, their twisted souls were bound to his evil will for all time. Bestowed with black, vampiric Runeblades and shadowy steeds, Death Knights serve as the Scourge's mightiest generals."

http://classic.battle.net/war3/undead/units/deathknight.shtml


http://www.wowhead.com/npc=30562

Crusader Bridenbrad.

A paladin who contracted the Undead Plague and feared to be raised as an Undead Monstrosity.

Your lore is perhaps out of date or perhaps even changed by a retcon.
Edited by Brukk on 2/18/2013 12:29 PM PST
25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
That is a political opinion.

Not fact.


No, it is a fact.

02/18/2013 12:28 PMPosted by Brukk
Perhaps these specific paladins are of a different political leaning than yourself?


If they were all a bunch of Forsaken fanboys in disguise why would they be fighting the Forsaken in the first place?

Hell, if they were Forsaken fanboys in disguise they wouldn't be Paladins, because that makes them the antithesis of everything the Forsaken are.
Edited by Vyrin on 2/18/2013 12:30 PM PST
02/18/2013 12:28 PMPosted by Gibbons
And if there were undead paladins, they'd probably join the Argent Crusade anyway.


More than likely.

Hence why I made the assumption that only 5 our of 20 raised paladins would join the Forsaken.

The rest would likely choose not to.
90 Orc Warlock
10490
02/18/2013 12:19 PMPosted by Egrem
Paladins wouldn't fit into the culture of the orcs or the goblins in any way whatsoever... but even they'd make better paladins than the Forsaken. They wouldn't be in constant pain (to the point of being unable to function in combat), which is more than the hypothetical Forsaken paladins could say.


Disagree here. Forsaken culture contains a certain amount of self-flagelation. I think they could have supported paladins Pre-Cata, when their focus was survival against the Lich King and trying to rebuild their shattered lives. There would have been grounds for having paladins, as people suggested, as fallen defenders who are determined to extract justice from Arthas, alive or dead. People who WILL NOT let their kingdom down again.

Post Cata, the Forsaken have moved away from their previous mindset to a degree. They've broken with their past to a degree, and have claimed a new identity and new goals. Their new cultural norms no longer support even extremist or twisted lines of Paladin thought. They're too pragmatic and twisty-minded now to have straightforward warriors of the Light, not to mention too wrapped up in their specific modes of combat and weapons.
100 Human Mage
19365
02/18/2013 12:30 PMPosted by Brukk
And if there were undead paladins, they'd probably join the Argent Crusade anyway.


More than likely.

Hence why I made the assumption that only 5 our of 20 raised paladins would join the Forsaken.

The rest would likely choose not to.


0 out of 20 is more likely.
Such as...?

Just that (for example) the Lich King could do it doesn't mean that the Val'kyr could. The Lich King was much, much stronger than the Val'kyr, after all.


Let me find my old post.

It contains a few undead paladins which were not raised by the Lich King.

Sorry, got distracted from searching for it by responding to posts in the thread.

02/18/2013 12:31 PMPosted by Gibbons
0 out of 20 is more likely.


I humbly disagree.

Which is why we are discussing the question.

I honestly do not believe the question is as black and white as that. And is much more complex than you insinuate.
Edited by Brukk on 2/18/2013 12:32 PM PST
25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
02/18/2013 12:30 PMPosted by Brukk
Hence why I made the assumption that only 5 our of 20 raised paladins would join the Forsaken.


Which is five more than actually would.

Disagree here. Forsaken culture contains a certain amount of self-flagelation. I think they could have supported paladins Pre-Cata, when their focus was survival against the Lich King and trying to rebuild their shattered lives. There would have been grounds for having paladins, as people suggested, as fallen defenders who are determined to extract justice from Arthas, alive or dead. People who WILL NOT let their kingdom down again.


The Forsaken were never this and it's baffling that people think that they ever were. Were you simply not paying attention during Forsaken quests or did you just ignore it and insert your own fanon?
100 Human Mage
19365
A paladin's beliefs and ideals are much more in tune with those of the Argent Crusade than with those of the Forsaken.

No paladin would willingly serve Sylvanas when Tirion provides a viable alternative. And Sylvanas doesn't have the means to force a paladin to serve her.
Edited by Gibbons on 2/18/2013 12:33 PM PST
02/18/2013 12:30 PMPosted by Vyrin
If they were all a bunch of Forsaken fanboys in disguise why would they be fighting the Forsaken in the first place?


Forsaken have nothing to do with these Paladins.

They fought the Scourge. In protection of the people who are now Forsaken.

Perhaps they even have family who is now Forsaken?

That's my thought on their possible origins, anyway.

Again. This is just a concept.

02/18/2013 12:27 PMPosted by Vyrin
They can't even raise non-humans, what makes you think they'd be able to raise a fully-functioning Paladin?


They can raise a fully functional Priest and a fully functional Warrior.

Again, just an assumption on my part.

But there is nothing in the lore that suggests that it is impossible to raise an Undead Paladin.

In fact, quite the contrary.
Edited by Brukk on 2/18/2013 12:34 PM PST
25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
02/18/2013 12:33 PMPosted by Brukk
They fought the Scourge. In protection of the people who are now Forsaken.


No, they didn't. They fought the Scourge in protection of the people who are now dead or exiled.

02/18/2013 12:33 PMPosted by Brukk
Perhaps they even have family who is now Forsaken?


Oh well in that case I guess that if the Scourge killed them they'd have to join the Scourge as well? I mean they might have family among them and lots of the people they fought to protect are now Scourge?

This is backwards troll-logic and you know it.

But there is nothing in the lore that suggests that it is impossible to raise an Undead Paladin.


For the scrub-necromancers that are the Val'kyr, there is.

Why don't you just roll a human Paladin instead of trying to crib them for the Horde by destroying the Forsaken's lore?
Edited by Vyrin on 2/18/2013 12:36 PM PST
A paladin's beliefs and ideals are much more in tune with those of the Argent Crusade than with those of the Forsaken.

No paladin would willingly serve Sylvanas when Tirion provides a viable alternative. And Sylvanas doesn't have the means to force a paladin to serve her.


Paladins serve and protect in the name of the Light.

These paladins served and protected the people of Lordaeron in life.

Now they protect the people of Lordaeron in death. Both their own, and the people's.

Why not?

I don't see why this is unreasonable...
90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
02/18/2013 12:30 PMPosted by Brukk
And if there were undead paladins, they'd probably join the Argent Crusade anyway.


More than likely.

Hence why I made the assumption that only 5 our of 20 raised paladins would join the Forsaken.

The rest would likely choose not to.


A 25% conversion rate, when Paladins beleive that undeath is a blasphemy? When their duty is to destroy undead? Specifically undead who are planning on murdering anyone in their path?

I really doubt this.
25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Paladins serve and protect in the name of the Light.

These paladins served and protected the people of Lordaeron in life.

Now they protect the people of Lordaeron in death. Both their own, and the people's.


So why aren't they lining up to join the Cult of the Damned to get raised as Scourge and protect even MORE of "Lordaeron's people?"

The fact of the matter is that the Forsaken and the Scourge are not the people that they swore to protect.
Edited by Vyrin on 2/18/2013 12:37 PM PST
90 Orc Warlock
10490
02/18/2013 12:32 PMPosted by Vyrin
The Forsaken were never this and it's baffling that people think that they ever were. Were you simply not paying attention during Forsaken quests or did you just ignore it and insert your own fanon?


Seriously, what do you think they were doing pre-Cata? Yes there was lashing out (Sometimes against reasonable targets, sometimes against whoever was trying to stab them at the moment), yes there was a lot of moral questionability, but the purpose of the Plague, their original goal, most of their original questing, most of what they talked about, and their leader's primary focus was "kill the Lich King, kill the Lich King, ohgod don't let the scourge eat us, kill the Lich King."

Everything else was secondary and focused on building up towards their goal of killing the Lich King.
02/18/2013 12:35 PMPosted by Vyrin
No, they didn't. They fought the Scourge in protection of the people who are now dead or exiled.


The majority of the Forsaken were the people of Lordaeron in life. Just like these Paladins would be.

Oh well in that case I guess that if the Scourge killed them they'd have to join the Scourge as well? I mean they might have family among them and lots of the people they fought to protect are now Scourge?

This is backwards troll-logic and you know it.


It really isn't.

You simply refuse to accept the Forsaken as a legitimate society of individuals. To accept the fact that the Forsaken are the people of Lordaeron. A fact confirmed by the lore.
63 Draenei Paladin
1680
The only Undead Paladins would be the ones going:"There is no good. No evil. No Light. There is only POWER!"

Ultimate control of Light requires the mindset that Light is only power(Benedictus created huge waves and Purifying Blasts of Light which not even Velen could do)!
90 Orc Warlock
10490
02/18/2013 12:36 PMPosted by Vyrin
So why aren't they lining up to join the Cult of the Damned to get raised as Scourge and protect even MORE of "Lordaeron's people?"


Here's another one of your logic faults

Forsaken ARE NOT Scourge.
100 Human Paladin
19485
02/18/2013 12:28 PMPosted by Brukk
Your lore is perhaps out of date or perhaps even changed by a retcon.


Paladins were immune to the plague in WC3... but WotLK takes place seven years later, and the Scourge was constantly working to make its plague more potent.

The plague used in the pre-WotLK world event was more dangerous than the one they used in WC3. Grand Apothecary Putress found a cure for that version, but by the time we got to Northrend they had an even better one (which is why Bridenbrad couldn't be cured). Then we went to Icecrown Citadel and found that Professor Putricide had already concocted a stronger version still.
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