'Heal-PS' - The Elephant In The Room.

90 Draenei Priest
6645
This is something that I've been wondering about for a long time. In 5.2 with an increased focus on Fistweaving and Atonement healing, you have 2 healing classes that are designed to do non-insignificant dps as part of their healing mechanics.

Why is this a problem?

Currently, even on my crappy geared disc spec, I can do 30-40k dps if I can stand and cast, and this provides quite a bit of healing. In 5.2, I will only be doing this more thanks to Solance and the newly buffed Penance.

With better gear I'm sure it would be higher.

What this means is that bringing a 'Heal-PS' to raid - a healer that can also do decent dps - you are essentially adding half an extra dps player to your raid. Add two, and you have 26 players in your 25.

But wait, why do you care if dragons die faster?

Because either this gives two healers *massive* utility on top of what they already have (Disc is certainly not lacking here, no idea about monks). I mean...40k dps is quite a bit.

This means that either Blizzard will need to balance the actual healing numbers around the expectation of them also being dps.

A better solution.

To me, what would make more sense is to keep the style intact, but shift it more towards being a healer.

- Reduce the damage done by these skills by 50% or so.
- Increase the healing done by these skills by 50% or so.
- If extra utility is needed for monks (no idea) then give it in a different manner.


Thoughts?
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100 Tauren Druid
9700
I hate it too. But the sooner you get over it the better. They're slowly filtering in dps mechanics into every single healing class. I'd only expect these types of roles to expand.

Really the only thing that reallllly ticks me off is seeing a disc priest soooo high on the meters, then flipping over to the dps and seeing her pull 45-50k. Ticks me off that blizzard sees absolutely nothing wrong with that and how broken it truly is. It may not seem quite so broke at the moment because we're late in a tier now.

But remember at the start of the tier... Elegon kills in the first 2-3 weeks (hardest progression fight this tier imo) A very high majority of these kills were done with less than 5 seconds on enrage timer, and with a disc priest throwing out over 35k dps. That right there, in my books, is game breaking. Game breaking because, bleeding edge, you'd be a moron not to bring one. You'd literally have to.

Edit; This is comming from someone who loves fistweaving. I main disc, but I hate atonement healing...fistweaving feels so different and unique I dunno...
I think the dps and hps of each class needs to be nerfed a bit, for the entire reason that they indeed do both. At least hps via atonement/fw.
Edited by Tonydanza on 2/14/2013 4:19 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
If you nerf Atonement Disc will truly lose what is left of their viability. I understand that you don't like Atonement, but no one is making you play Disc. There are many players who love the playstyle. They have a right to have fun, too.
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90 Draenei Priest
6645
I have no problem with Heal-PS in general. I'm actually slowly learning to like Atonement too :).

My concern is that if you have 2 healing classes doing 40-50% the dps of actual dps classes (more than tanks sometimes!) that gives them a *massive* advantage and they will need to be balanced around it.

Either that, or you need to make all healers Heal-PS.
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90 Draenei Priest
6645
02/14/2013 04:10 PMPosted by Tonydanza
But remember at the start of the tier... Elegon kills in the first 2-3 weeks (hardest progression fight this tier imo) A very high majority of these kills were done with less than 5 seconds on enrage timer, and with a disc priest throwing out over 35k dps. That right there, in my books, is game breaking. Game breaking because, bleeding edge, you'd be a moron not to bring one. You'd literally have to.


Also a very, very good point.

Especially since in 5.2 Disc will be doing a *lot* more Atonement healing.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
I have no problem with Heal-PS in general. I'm actually slowly learning to like Atonement too :).

My concern is that if you have 2 healing classes doing 40-50% the dps of actual dps classes (more than tanks sometimes!) that gives them a *massive* advantage and they will need to be balanced around it.

Either that, or you need to make all healers Heal-PS.


The numbers are being greatly inflated by the fact that many of the bosses have a damage modifier that inflates both our DPS and our HPS.
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90 Draenei Priest
6645
02/14/2013 04:18 PMPosted by Tiriél
The numbers are being greatly inflated by the fact that many of the bosses have a damage modifier that inflates both our DPS and our HPS.


Even on regular bosses in my crappy gear I can break into the mid 30ks with minimal effort. Can you imagine this with buffed Penance, an increased focus on Atonement and 5.2 gear?

I'm just saying that giving some healers significant dps on top of their healing/utility is a bad idea, unless you tune everyone accordingly.
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100 Tauren Shaman
HC
18410
02/14/2013 04:14 PMPosted by Tiriél
If you nerf Atonement Disc will truly lose what is left of their viability. I understand that you don't like Atonement, but no one is making you play Disc. There are many players who love the playstyle. They have a right to have fun, too.


Absorbs?
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90 Draenei Priest
6645
02/14/2013 04:22 PMPosted by Sensations
If you nerf Atonement Disc will truly lose what is left of their viability. I understand that you don't like Atonement, but no one is making you play Disc. There are many players who love the playstyle. They have a right to have fun, too.


Absorbs?


Just saying 'absorbs' doesn't make Disc viable though. Disc was shockingly bad before the buffs (yes, I know you keep saying 'fine, fine, fine' to every other class but yours but it doesn't make it so).

I don't want to see disc healing nerfed. I do think that disc dps needs a look though.
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100 Tauren Shaman
HC
18410
02/14/2013 04:24 PMPosted by Eclipsé


Absorbs?


Just saying 'absorbs' doesn't make Disc viable though. Disc was shockingly bad before the buffs (yes, I know you keep saying 'fine, fine, fine' to every other class but yours but it doesn't make it so).

I don't want to see disc healing nerfed. I do think that disc dps needs a look though.


Except even before disc was buffed and it was ~20% lower than other healers on precious meters, they were still brought to world progression. No other healer would be brought if they're that lackluster in throughput, so what we can derive is that Absorbs are extremely potent and powerful.
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90 Draenei Priest
6645
02/14/2013 04:26 PMPosted by Sensations
Except even before disc was buffed and it was ~20% lower than other healers on precious meters, they were still brought to world progression. No other healer would be brought if they're that lackluster in throughput, so what we can derive is that Absorbs are extremely potent and powerful.


Or...that the people brought to progression were trusted and geared raiders?

Or they were brought for atonement dps?

Or they were brought in expectation of getting a buff?

I do think that Absorbs are strong, but not strong enough to justify making disc priests automatically crappy.

Also - this is a discussion for a different thread.
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90 Human Monk
17840
For our first H Gara'jal kills we had our shadow priest going disc to "2,5 healing" it. We were so close to the enrage timer that it did make the difference, even without a damage taken modifier to inflate the passive healing. 3-healing would bring us down on dps, 2-healing could get us killed.

It's not only about heal-ps, but how other healers don't quite have the same choice as MWs and disc to do some damage & healing when little healing is needed and/or more damage is welcome or even necessary. A resto druid spamming Wrath and MF doesn't come even close on damage, a hybrid using their limited heals doesn't come even close on healing, and neither can do both so seamlessly.

I don't see them changing either disc or MW, though. MWs were touted so hard about being damage-healers, "breaking" it at this point would be weird.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/14/2013 04:22 PMPosted by Eclipsé
The numbers are being greatly inflated by the fact that many of the bosses have a damage modifier that inflates both our DPS and our HPS.


Even on regular bosses in my crappy gear I can break into the mid 30ks with minimal effort. Can you imagine this with buffed Penance, an increased focus on Atonement and 5.2 gear?

I'm just saying that giving some healers significant dps on top of their healing/utility is a bad idea, unless you tune everyone accordingly.


Considering that there are DPS breaking the 200k DPS mark, I really don't see it as an issue.

BTW, it really isn't worth engaging with Sensations on the subject. He has a very set view that Disc never had any problems, and anyone who says otherwise was just whining.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13955
You have to keep in mind the difference between DPS and DPS(e), and when a Disc Priest is most likely to be using Atonement.

For instance, my DPS on ES' latest Lei Shi kill was 92.7k, but my DPS(e) was only 38.2k. Atonement was 20% of my healing, and I accounted for about 1.51% of the damage dealt.

Our other Disc Priest beat me on Elegon, with 73k DPS(e) to my 57k DPS(e)—but the actual difference between our damage done was only about 900k.

Those are both fights with pretty hefty damage modifiers, fights that encourage heavier Atonement use. On normal fights, Disc is going to slip Atonement in as a filler during light damage—usually enough to pop Archangel. It can certainly make the difference between a first kill and yet another wipe, but so can any number of other factors/utilities.

Fistweaving is also a rather different beast; there are similarities, to be sure, but it's not quite got the same feel/goal.

Regarding the title, healers dealing damage has been a concept neither ignored nor unaddressed. It's not the elephant in the room.
Edited by Elethia on 2/14/2013 6:14 PM PST
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100 Tauren Shaman
HC
18410
BTW, it really isn't worth engaging with Sensations on the subject. He has a very set view that Disc never had any problems, and anyone who says otherwise was just whining.


Boy you sure add words to peoples mouths, Reta. I never once said Disc didn't have problems, and if I did please show me.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/14/2013 04:45 PMPosted by Sensations
BTW, it really isn't worth engaging with Sensations on the subject. He has a very set view that Disc never had any problems, and anyone who says otherwise was just whining.


Boy you sure add words to peoples mouths, Reta. I never once said Disc didn't have problems, and if I did please show me.


"Disc was fine at the start of the expansion."

We're having this discussion in another thread, but apparently Merriam-Webster's definition of what "fine" means isn't the same as what you mean. Maybe you should pick another descriptor.
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100 Tauren Shaman
HC
18410
02/14/2013 04:48 PMPosted by Tiriél


Boy you sure add words to peoples mouths, Reta. I never once said Disc didn't have problems, and if I did please show me.


"Disc was fine at the start of the expansion."

We're having this discussion in another thread, but apparently Merriam-Webster's definition of what "fine" means isn't the same as what you mean. Maybe you should pick another descriptor.


Like I said in the other thread, taking things too literal isn't any better, Reta.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/14/2013 04:49 PMPosted by Sensations
Like I said in the other thread, taking things too literal isn't any better, Reta.


Then you need to use words that mean precisely what you intend to communicate, instead of hiding behind, "You're just taking things too literal." Either you say what you mean, or you don't. I have no way to determine if you actually believe the things you're typing on this forum. So either only say what you mean to say, or don't expect me not to take you exactly literally when you make a statement.
Edited by Tiriél on 2/14/2013 4:52 PM PST
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100 Tauren Shaman
HC
18410
02/14/2013 04:52 PMPosted by Tiriél
Like I said in the other thread, taking things too literal isn't any better, Reta.


Then you need to use words that mean precisely what you intend to communicate, instead of hiding behind, "You're just taking things too literal." Either you say what you mean, or you don't. I have no way to determine if you actually believe the things you're typing on this forum. So either only say what you mean to say, or don't expect me not to take you exactly literally when you make a statement.


You know exactly what I believe, you just enjoy arguing with me <3
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90 Draenei Priest
6645
02/14/2013 04:40 PMPosted by Tiriél
BTW, it really isn't worth engaging with Sensations on the subject. He has a very set view that Disc never had any problems, and anyone who says otherwise was just whining.


He is the same with other classes too. Two certain threads about Resto Druids comes to minds. Essentially he was saying that druids have so much utility (wut) that it's fine that they are 10-20% behind other healers.
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