'Heal-PS' - The Elephant In The Room.

90 Draenei Priest
6645
02/14/2013 04:49 PMPosted by Sensations
Like I said in the other thread, taking things too literal isn't any better, Reta.


You can't just change the meanings of words to suit your argument.

Fine means fine. It doesn't mean 'crappy, but I don't think it should be fixed'.
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100 Tauren Shaman
HC
17675
BTW, it really isn't worth engaging with Sensations on the subject. He has a very set view that Disc never had any problems, and anyone who says otherwise was just whining.


He is the same with other classes too. Two certain threads about Resto Druids comes to minds. Essentially he was saying that druids have so much utility (wut) that it's fine that they are 10-20% behind other healers.


Wow you're worse than reta at twisting words. My only argument against Resto Druids was how they were using raidbots for their argument, and actually my Druid co-healer is the one who said they have a lot of utility now.

You can't just change the meanings of words to suit your argument.

Fine means fine. It doesn't mean 'crappy, but I don't think it should be fixed'.



Umm, I didn't change the meaning. But continue, it's funny.
Edited by Sensations on 2/14/2013 4:59 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Walking the middle ground here, Druids do have a lot of utility (though some of that has to do with who they are raiding with via Symbiosis). There are quite a few fights where the utility Druids bring has made my raid group able to down content we otherwise might not have managed.

With that said, I'm happy for the buff they're receiving because I don't like my Druid co-healer feeling like he doesn't bring much to the table. Utility is great, but he wants to heal.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9790
Just let Sensations equivocate the night away...it's his bliss.
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90 Draenei Priest
6645
02/14/2013 04:57 PMPosted by Sensations
Wow you're worse than reta at twisting words. My only argument against Resto Druids was how they were using raidbots for their argument, and actually my Druid co-healer is the one who said they have a lot of utility now.


Really not going to root through those threads now (since people never admit they are wrong on the internet) but I remember you saying something like it too.

You said resto druids were fine, implying that Blizzard are wrong to buff them and that all their problems (clunkrooms, crap cooldown, massive mana issues) don't exist.

Raidbots is the only metric we have available. Naturally you can't base all decisions on it, but it's a bloody good indicator that something is squiffy with druids.
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100 Tauren Shaman
HC
17675
02/14/2013 05:01 PMPosted by Hetch
Just let Sensations equivocate the night away...it's his bliss.


Boy you sure got me, tell me more.
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90 Draenei Priest
6645
02/14/2013 04:57 PMPosted by Sensations
Umm, I didn't change the meaning. But continue, it's funny.


Do you want me to break out a dictionary?

Oh, and now you are just trolling.

Sensations - how about rather than trolling threads of other classes, you actually provide some numbers/actual arguments about *why* they are fine?

Walking the middle ground here, Druids do have a lot of utility (though some of that has to do with who they are raiding with via Symbiosis). There are quite a few fights where the utility Druids bring has made my raid group able to down content we otherwise might not have managed.With that said, I'm happy for the buff they're receiving because I don't like my Druid co-healer feeling like he doesn't bring much to the table. Utility is great, but he wants to heal.


Symbiosis is very cool, but ultra-clunky to use, very circumstantial, and depends entirely on people doing something extra on top of a demanding raid encounter. It's just like Lightwell used to be...which was changed in MOP for exactly this reason.

- Tranq is our major cooldown, and I've seen people die through it.
- Eff is nice in theory, but it's target cap and it's small radius make it crappy in a tier where everyone tends to be so mobile and spread out.
- Wild Growth is pretty pricey for what it does.
- Rejuv's duration was cut so short that blanketting is no longer really possible.
- Many druids have taken Healing Touch off their bars entirely aside from procs, and Nourish off their bars altogether.

It feels like they are missing something. Either an additional mobile aoe healing tool (something like POM?) or a more reliable Greater Heal equivalent.

But let's keep this thread OT, there is a resto thread on the front page we can continue this in if you'd like :).
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100 Night Elf Priest
18045
It's not only about heal-ps, but how other healers don't quite have the same choice as MWs and disc to do some damage & healing when little healing is needed and/or more damage is welcome or even necessary. A resto druid spamming Wrath and MF doesn't come even close on damage, a hybrid using their limited heals doesn't come even close on healing, and neither can do both so seamlessly.

I would concede these points.

But shhh, guys, I WANT to continue doing 120k dps on damage modifier fights and 40-60k on non-dm fights! SHHH DON'T ATTRACT THEIR SAURON-NERF-EYE TO US MORE

I love my 10 man heal-p-s niche :( I don't even use SS on any but 1-minute-apart-burst-damage fights anyway! I swear! ahem.
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90 Draenei Priest
6645
It's not only about heal-ps, but how other healers don't quite have the same choice as MWs and disc to do some damage & healing when little healing is needed and/or more damage is welcome or even necessary. A resto druid spamming Wrath and MF doesn't come even close on damage, a hybrid using their limited heals doesn't come even close on healing, and neither can do both so seamlessly.

I would concede these points.

But shhh, guys, I WANT to continue doing 120k dps on damage modifier fights and 40-60k on non-dm fights! SHHH DON'T ATTRACT THEIR SAURON-NERF-EYE TO US MORE

I love my 10 man heal-p-s niche :( I don't even use SS on any but 1-minute-apart-burst-damage fights anyway! I swear! ahem.


Just wait until 5.2. With the penance buffs and the increased focus on Atonement, I wouldn't be surprised to see Disc beating some dps specs.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13930
It's not only about heal-ps, but how other healers don't quite have the same choice as MWs and disc to do some damage & healing when little healing is needed and/or more damage is welcome or even necessary. A resto druid spamming Wrath and MF doesn't come even close on damage, a hybrid using their limited heals doesn't come even close on healing, and neither can do both so seamlessly.


Why is that a problem? You're essentially asking for homogenization.

Also, anyone beaten by a Disc Priest is either terrible, horribly undergeared, or dead for most of a fight. That's not going to change in 5.2.
Edited by Elethia on 2/14/2013 5:47 PM PST
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90 Draenei Priest
6645
02/14/2013 05:46 PMPosted by Elethia
Why is that a problem? You're essentially asking for homogenization.


Balance =/= homogenization. Why not decrease the damage done and increase the healing modifiers? You'd still have your 'hit to heal' style and it's not like disc is lacking in other utility.

02/14/2013 05:46 PMPosted by Elethia
Also, anyone beaten by a Disc Priest is either terrible, horribly undergeared, or dead for most of a fight. That's not going to change in 5.2.


We will see.

Even if Disc is only doing 50% of other classes' dps, that's *huge* on anything with a tight enrage and a damage modifier (popular design now it seems).

If it was the only utility that Disc had, I'd understand. But I'm concerned that we will see guilds going from stacking Disc because it was the best healer by far due to absorb blanketting to stacking Disc...because they are the best healer because two of them gives you an extra dps.
Edited by Eclipsé on 2/14/2013 5:56 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/14/2013 05:52 PMPosted by Eclipsé
Also, anyone beaten by a Disc Priest is either terrible, horribly undergeared, or dead for most of a fight. That's not going to change in 5.2.


We will see.

Even if Disc is only doing 50% of other classes' dps, that's *huge* on anything with a tight enrage.

If it was the only utility that Disc had, I'd understand. But I'm concerned that we will see guilds going from stacking Disc because it was the best healer by far due to absorb blanketting to stacking Disc...because they are the best healer because two of them gives you an extra dps.


Okay, my suspension of disbelief is officially surpassed.
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90 Draenei Priest
6645
02/14/2013 05:53 PMPosted by Tiriél
Okay, my suspension of disbelief is officially surpassed.


How so?
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90 Human Priest
5860
damn. popcorn's all gone. brb guys.

As long as blizzard keeps making fights with damage modifiers while pushing dps-to-heal mechanics there will be ... issues.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/14/2013 05:54 PMPosted by Eclipsé
Okay, my suspension of disbelief is officially surpassed.


How so?


I think you need to get on the PTR and test all that absorb stacking. :)
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90 Draenei Priest
6645
02/14/2013 05:59 PMPosted by Tiriél


How so?


I think you need to get on the PTR and test all that absorb stacking. :)


Ah :).

I think you misunderstood me (maybe I was ambigious).

I meant that in 5.1 Disc is too powerful because of absorb stacking. I know they killed it in 5.2.

I am slightly concerned though that the buffs to Atonement are going to become a problem in 5.2 simply because of priest dps output, especially if we see more damage modified fights with tight enrages.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13930
I think you need to get on the PTR and test all that absorb stacking. :)


She said switching from stacking Disc for absorbs to stacking Disc for the DPS potential.

Frankly, it's not going to happen.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/14/2013 06:02 PMPosted by Elethia
I think you need to get on the PTR and test all that absorb stacking. :)


She said switching from stacking Disc for absorbs to stacking Disc for the DPS potential.

Frankly, it's not going to happen.


Oh, you're right. I misread. Was too confused by a comment on vent from our tank ("Wait, there are portals in the Shrine?"). No, yeah, that's not going to happen.
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90 Draenei Priest
6645
She said switching from stacking Disc for absorbs to stacking Disc for the DPS potential.Frankly, it's not going to happen.


You don't think so?

Out of interest, in a 25m raid, lets say that a disc priest is doing 60k and a dps is doing 120k on average.

That means that if you brought 2 disc priests, assuming that they will do the majority of their healing through Atonement (this seems reasonable to assume in 5.2) you would essentially have an extra dps.

You don't think that this will see them getting stacked more?
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100 Night Elf Priest
13930
Quoting myself, since I'm assuming you missed it in the digression:

You have to keep in mind the difference between DPS and DPS(e), and when a Disc Priest is most likely to be using Atonement.

For instance, my DPS on ES' latest Lei Shi kill was 92.7k, but my DPS(e) was only 38.2k. Atonement was 20% of my healing, and I accounted for about 1.51% of the damage dealt.

Our other Disc Priest beat me on Elegon, with 73k DPS(e) to my 57k DPS(e)—but the actual difference between our damage done was only about 900k. (Addition: and the difference between our damage and that of a normal DPS was significant.)

Those are both fights with pretty hefty damage modifiers, fights that encourage heavier Atonement use. On normal fights, Disc is going to slip Atonement in as a filler during light damage—usually enough to pop Archangel. It can certainly make the difference between a first kill and yet another wipe, but so can any number of other factors/utilities.

Fistweaving is also a rather different beast; there are similarities, to be sure, but it's not quite got the same feel/goal.

Regarding the title, healers dealing damage has been a concept neither ignored nor unaddressed. It's not the elephant in the room.
Edited by Elethia on 2/14/2013 6:14 PM PST
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