'Heal-PS' - The Elephant In The Room.

90 Human Priest
5860
Atonement healing is good as a less efficient filler for healing. It's not going to save the raid (outside of penance, maybe) in heavy healing situations. It only breaks down if the scaling gets out of whack, you're overgearing content, or there's damage modifiers.
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90 Human Priest
11345
02/14/2013 05:41 PMPosted by Synariel
SHHH DON'T ATTRACT THEIR SAURON-NERF-EYE TO US MORE
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
02/14/2013 04:30 PMPosted by Eclipsé
Except even before disc was buffed and it was ~20% lower than other healers on precious meters, they were still brought to world progression. No other healer would be brought if they're that lackluster in throughput, so what we can derive is that Absorbs are extremely potent and powerful.


Or...that the people brought to progression were trusted and geared raiders?

Or they were brought for atonement dps?

Or they were brought in expectation of getting a buff?

I do think that Absorbs are strong, but not strong enough to justify making disc priests automatically crappy.

Also - this is a discussion for a different thread.

Absorbs are extremely important to have, even if it's not as powerful as it is now.

02/14/2013 04:56 PMPosted by Eclipsé
Essentially he was saying that druids have so much utility (wut) that it's fine that they are 10-20% behind other healers.

...They do.

02/14/2013 05:01 PMPosted by Tiriél
There are quite a few fights where the utility Druids bring has made my raid group able to down content we otherwise might not have managed.

Maybe it's just because you haven't dealt with heroicmodes as much, because almost every single heroic fight there is my utility as a druid in general has been a reason why we downed the boss. 'Cept maybe Wind Lord? Not much to do there.
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90 Draenei Priest
6645
02/14/2013 06:56 PMPosted by Fleurs
...They do.


Lets hear it then:

- what unique utility does resto bring to a 25man raid that is not better covered by another healer?
- How does this justify having significantly lower effective healing than any other class this expansion?
- Why hasn't this utility persauded more top end guilds to bring resto druids to their lineup?
- Why aren't you lobbying against the druid buffs in 5.2, if you really think they are so unneeded?

So in your opinion Blizzard should just revert the 5.2 buffs and call it a day?
Edited by Eclipsé on 2/14/2013 7:15 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/14/2013 06:56 PMPosted by Fleurs
Maybe it's just because you haven't dealt with heroicmodes as much, because almost every single heroic fight there is my utility as a druid in general has been a reason why we downed the boss. 'Cept maybe Wind Lord? Not much to do there.


Downing bosses is downing bosses, but our Druid played a vital role in each of our heroic kills. The only one we two-healed was Elegon. But you and I both know that I support the Druid buffs.
Edited by Tiriél on 2/14/2013 7:17 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12030
If you want to worry about healer DPS, you should worry about Holy, not Disc.

I don't think you should worry about either one; I think the current situation for Holy is great and exactly what 10m raiding needed. But keep in mind: we can match or exceed Disc's overall damage contribution, greatly exceed Disc's peak single-target and AoE DPS (incredibly useful for exploding-type adds or pushing a phase), and make a much more useful sort of healing contribution (massive focused burst with infinite mana, vs. Disc's constant stream of low-level healing).
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
02/14/2013 07:13 PMPosted by Eclipsé
...They do.


Lets hear it then:

- what unique utility does resto bring to a 25man raid that is not better covered by another healer?
- How does this justify having significantly lower effective healing than any other class this expansion?
- Why hasn't this utility persauded more top end guilds to bring resto druids to their lineup?
- Why aren't you lobbying against the druid buffs in 5.2, if you really think they are so unneeded?

So in your opinion Blizzard should just revert the 5.2 buffs and call it a day?

The fact that I have to explain just... Really means you have no idea about anything...

• Tank CDs provided by resto, along w/ symbiosis CDs.
• Vortex for a number of fights where it works (feng, will)
• HoTW to be an additional DPS for its duration (helps on fights where burst matters [for the record, that's every fight except the ones with long enrage timers])
• Typhoon on fights with adds (feng, will, tsulong)
• Ability to go bearform and tank/taunt (this is so helpful on heroic empress)
• Battle Rez for 100% health
• Instant roots/cyclone on fights with adds (will, lei shi)
• Stampeding Roar for fights that require quick movement (running out for velocity, running away on spirit kings, running out on elegon, running away on will, running away on vizier, blade lord, garalon, ambershaper, empress)
• Ability to toss out Innervate to someone else if we don't need it (there are indeed times where this happens)
• Aility to bash targets to prevent adds getting to someone (will, feng, tsulong, lei shi)
• Ability to heal on the move better than any other class
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90 Blood Elf Priest
ONE
12520


Lets hear it then:

- what unique utility does resto bring to a 25man raid that is not better covered by another healer?
- How does this justify having significantly lower effective healing than any other class this expansion?
- Why hasn't this utility persauded more top end guilds to bring resto druids to their lineup?
- Why aren't you lobbying against the druid buffs in 5.2, if you really think they are so unneeded?

So in your opinion Blizzard should just revert the 5.2 buffs and call it a day?

The fact that I have to explain just... Really means you have no idea about anything...

• Tank CDs provided by resto, along w/ symbiosis CDs.
• Vortex for a number of fights where it works (feng, will)
• HoTW to be an additional DPS for its duration (helps on fights where burst matters [for the record, that's every fight except the ones with long enrage timers])
• Typhoon on fights with adds (feng, will, tsulong)
• Ability to go bearform and tank/taunt (this is so helpful on heroic empress)
• Battle Rez for 100% health
• Instant roots/cyclone on fights with adds (will, lei shi)
• Stampeding Roar for fights that require quick movement (running out for velocity, running away on spirit kings, running out on elegon, running away on will, running away on vizier, blade lord, garalon, ambershaper, empress)
• Ability to toss out Innervate to someone else if we don't need it (there are indeed times where this happens)
• Aility to bash targets to prevent adds getting to someone (will, feng, tsulong, lei shi)
• Ability to heal on the move better than any other class


And how much of that can be brought by a resto druid only? A 25man would be hard pressed to only have one druid, and for that druid to be solely Resto. In 10man, what you say could easily be true, but the post you quoted specifically stated 25man.
Edited by Moret on 2/15/2013 12:30 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12410
And how much of that can be brought by a resto druid only? A 25man would be hard pressed to only have one druid, and for that druid to be solely Resto. In 10man, what you say could easily be true, but the post you quoted specifically stated 25man.


I'm going to pretend I didn't read this, and go to sleep. Maybe, when I wake up, it will be severely edited.

Riôt
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
• Tank CDs provided by resto, along w/ symbiosis CDs.
• Vortex for a number of fights where it works (feng, will)
• HoTW to be an additional DPS for its duration (helps on fights where burst matters [for the record, that's every fight except the ones with long enrage timers])
• Typhoon on fights with adds (feng, will, tsulong)
• Ability to go bearform and tank/taunt (this is so helpful on heroic empress)
• Battle Rez for 100% health
• Instant roots/cyclone on fights with adds (will, lei shi)
• Stampeding Roar for fights that require quick movement (running out for velocity, running away on spirit kings, running out on elegon, running away on will, running away on vizier, blade lord, garalon, ambershaper, empress)
• Ability to toss out Innervate to someone else if we don't need it (there are indeed times where this happens)
• Ability to bash targets to prevent adds getting to someone (will, feng, tsulong, lei shi)
• Ability to heal on the move better than any other class


^^ These are just a few of the reasons why I love Resto Druids.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
02/15/2013 12:30 AMPosted by Moret
And how much of that can be brought by a resto druid only? A 25man would be hard pressed to only have one druid, and for that druid to be solely Resto. In 10man, what you say could easily be true, but the post you quoted specifically stated 25man.


The CDs that a Druid receives from Symbiosis are determined by their spec. Balance, Feral, and Guardian Druids will not receive the same abilities.

That said, there's very little that any class can bring that no other class or spec can also bring. But the immense amount of utility that Resto Druids bring in addition to their strong, mobile heals makes them attractive for many bosses.
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63 Dwarf Priest
0
The question of whether "Heal-PS" counts as utility is an interesting one. Monks, for example, don't have much in the way of big healing cooldowns or any edge in utility utility. (1 CC, 1 Slow/root, 1 AoE Stun, Revival: a raidwide instant heal/dispel).
Oddly enough two T14 heroic fights benefited from our ability to soak otherwise fatal hits (WotE and Elegon).

Of these, only Revival is Mistweaver specific... I wonder if our ability to throw in extra DPS during healing down-time is counted as utility, and is one of the reasons we have fewer/more lacking traditional healing/damage reduction cooldowns.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12370
I think you're greatly underestimating the dps potential of the other healing classes. We have to stop and heal but like.. whatever.. theres downtime.
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90 Draenei Paladin
10900
02/14/2013 06:06 PMPosted by Eclipsé
She said switching from stacking Disc for absorbs to stacking Disc for the DPS potential.Frankly, it's not going to happen.


You don't think so?

Out of interest, in a 25m raid, lets say that a disc priest is doing 60k and a dps is doing 120k on average.

That means that if you brought 2 disc priests, assuming that they will do the majority of their healing through Atonement (this seems reasonable to assume in 5.2) you would essentially have an extra dps.

You don't think that this will see them getting stacked more?


Actually, this is one of my concerns and primarily because I'm watching it happen. We just lost our monk healer due to IRL issues and the first thing that raid lead said was "Yay we can get a disc priest" This is all well and good. Priests are powerful healers, though I rather think a holy priest work better with Holy paladins. However, my raid lead "wants his dps". He didn't say, I want his absorbs or his healing. He said, "I want his dps. With his heals and his dps those enrage timers aren't going to be nearly as tight"

This thought process, from the community in general is making disc priests an almost necessity for progression raiding. An issue that paladins, Druids and shamans can't begin to compete with. Those are my concerns.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
ONE
12520
02/14/2013 11:23 PMPosted by Fleurs


Lets hear it then:

- what unique utility does resto bring to a 25man raid that is not better covered by another healer?
- How does this justify having significantly lower effective healing than any other class this expansion?
- Why hasn't this utility persauded more top end guilds to bring resto druids to their lineup?
- Why aren't you lobbying against the druid buffs in 5.2, if you really think they are so unneeded?

So in your opinion Blizzard should just revert the 5.2 buffs and call it a day?

The fact that I have to explain just... Really means you have no idea about anything...

• Vortex for a number of fights where it works (feng, will)
• Typhoon on fights with adds (feng, will, tsulong)
• Ability to go bearform and tank/taunt (this is so helpful on heroic empress)
[I'm going to add a note here that a resto druid doing this is gimped heavily compared to a Feral druid doing this, and as such is a pretty big stretch as far as utility for a resto druid goes imo]
• Battle Rez for 100% health
• Instant roots/cyclone on fights with adds (will, lei shi)
• Stampeding Roar for fights that require quick movement (running out for velocity, running away on spirit kings, running out on elegon, running away on will, running away on vizier, blade lord, garalon, ambershaper, empress)
• Ability to toss out Innervate to someone else if we don't need it (there are indeed times where this happens)
• Aility to bash targets to prevent adds getting to someone (will, feng, tsulong, lei shi)


There, I made it simpler and got rid of the three things that resto druids are the only spec of druid that can do (though I admit maybe one or two on there are useless when done from feral/balance/guardian [innervate mainly], and I don't really keep track of how much those things have changed since I last messed around with a druid).

Pretty much anything on that list would be more easily done by a DPS druid, save Battle Rez, if only for the fact that a DPS is already going to be targetting such that their target is relevant to the portion of the fight that such an ability is useful for, and won't require the resto druid to stop healing, find a target, swap forms, use the ability, swap out and resume healing after 2-3 seconds.

Again, this only pertains to a 25man, and in 10man I would agree a resto druid has exceptional utility. But the original post that was replied to specifically listed a 25man raid.
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90 Tauren Druid
8435

The fact that I have to explain just... Really means you have no idea about anything...

• Tank CDs provided by resto, along w/ symbiosis CDs.
• Vortex for a number of fights where it works (feng, will)
• HoTW to be an additional DPS for its duration (helps on fights where burst matters [for the record, that's every fight except the ones with long enrage timers])
• Typhoon on fights with adds (feng, will, tsulong)
• Ability to go bearform and tank/taunt (this is so helpful on heroic empress)
• Battle Rez for 100% health
• Instant roots/cyclone on fights with adds (will, lei shi)
• Stampeding Roar for fights that require quick movement (running out for velocity, running away on spirit kings, running out on elegon, running away on will, running away on vizier, blade lord, garalon, ambershaper, empress)
• Ability to toss out Innervate to someone else if we don't need it (there are indeed times where this happens)
• Aility to bash targets to prevent adds getting to someone (will, feng, tsulong, lei shi)
• Ability to heal on the move better than any other class


Could you possibly inflate that list any more?

All the crowd control mechanisms need to be lumped into 1 catagory.
Remove brez from that list. Since multiple classes bring it and, Come on. That glyph is a pvp glyph and you have to be a moron to use it in PvE. Due to superior options (LB, WG, RG) Not a single one of those are ever, under any circumstances, worth dropping for Brez in PvE. EVER. Therefore that's not utility in PvE.

I'd even take Innervate off that list. 10% is poop and lets be honest here, it's only used when your cohealer had a brain fart and took a nap in the fire and you brezzed him. Utility...perhaps..but marginal at best. I'll gift you that one.

Ability to go bearform and taunt...I would not call that utility as theres a host of other classes that have taunts outside of the tanks.

Also bash is rather laughable for you to stick this in here as healer utility...I feel you're really reaching to inflate your list, even though you have some very true points. Maybe for 5mans, but then again, thats another cc mechanism, along with others you mentioned, which also happen to share the same talent tier.
Edited by Tonydanza on 2/15/2013 4:26 PM PST
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100 Orc Shaman
HC
16845

The fact that I have to explain just... Really means you have no idea about anything...

• Vortex for a number of fights where it works (feng, will)
• Typhoon on fights with adds (feng, will, tsulong)
• Ability to go bearform and tank/taunt (this is so helpful on heroic empress)
[I'm going to add a note here that a resto druid doing this is gimped heavily compared to a Feral druid doing this, and as such is a pretty big stretch as far as utility for a resto druid goes imo]
• Battle Rez for 100% health
• Instant roots/cyclone on fights with adds (will, lei shi)
• Stampeding Roar for fights that require quick movement (running out for velocity, running away on spirit kings, running out on elegon, running away on will, running away on vizier, blade lord, garalon, ambershaper, empress)
• Ability to toss out Innervate to someone else if we don't need it (there are indeed times where this happens)
• Aility to bash targets to prevent adds getting to someone (will, feng, tsulong, lei shi)


There, I made it simpler and got rid of the three things that resto druids are the only spec of druid that can do (though I admit maybe one or two on there are useless when done from feral/balance/guardian [innervate mainly], and I don't really keep track of how much those things have changed since I last messed around with a druid).

Pretty much anything on that list would be more easily done by a DPS druid, save Battle Rez, if only for the fact that a DPS is already going to be targetting such that their target is relevant to the portion of the fight that such an ability is useful for, and won't require the resto druid to stop healing, find a target, swap forms, use the ability, swap out and resume healing after 2-3 seconds.

Again, this only pertains to a 25man, and in 10man I would agree a resto druid has exceptional utility. But the original post that was replied to specifically listed a 25man raid.


By this logic no one would bring a Holy Paladin, yet they're one of the most represented healers in heroic raiding. Please stop.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13405
Here's a thought: let's stop derailing the thread.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
02/15/2013 04:25 PMPosted by Tonydanza
All the crowd control mechanisms need to be lumped into 1 catagory.

I don't see how this is relevant. Whether it's in 1 huge category or on a whole generalized list, it doesn't make a difference.

02/15/2013 04:25 PMPosted by Tonydanza
Remove brez from that list. Since multiple classes bring it and, Come on. That glyph is a pvp glyph and you have to be a moron to use it in PvE.

No other class brings 100% brez... That's pretty nice to have, especially if it's a clutch moment where it's a tank and has to taunt immediately after they rez. I wouldn't take it so lightly.
How is it a "PvP" glyph? You cannot battlerez outside of regular BGs, and therefore makes it 100% useless in any other setting in PvP.

02/15/2013 04:25 PMPosted by Tonydanza
Due to superior options (LB, WG, RG) Not a single one of those are ever, under any circumstances, worth dropping for Brez in PvE. EVER.

...Superior? I'd say circumstantial. For both. LB being the one I'd change out. For you not to see its worth makes me sad, because you're really unwilling to try something new/have an open mind (guess that explains why you responded).

02/15/2013 04:25 PMPosted by Tonydanza
10% is poop and lets be honest here, it's only used when your cohealer had a brain fart and took a nap in the fire and you brezzed him.

Or maybe I don't need it. 10% is 10%, no matter if it's small or large, it's mana. You can't refute the argument; mana is mana. Any bit matters.

02/15/2013 04:25 PMPosted by Tonydanza
Ability to go bearform and taunt...I would not call that utility as theres a host of other classes that have taunts outside of the tanks.

Druids in bearform + barkskin/Might of Ursoc will have more survivability in tanking than any other healer. On H Empress I'd literally stand there for the CDs duration until I got the buff. Neither our hpal or rsham could do that.

And most guilds would prefer a healer do this job, if they are able, than a DPS. It's just how it is.

02/15/2013 04:25 PMPosted by Tonydanza
Also bash is rather laughable for you to stick this in here as healer utility...I feel you're really reaching to inflate your list, even though you have some very true points. Maybe for 5mans, but then again, thats another cc mechanism, along with others you mentioned, which also happen to share the same talent tier.

...Heroic Tsulong, Heroic Lei Shi, Heroic Will, Heroic Feng. Those are not 5mans.

The fact that you're willing to throw out your class's utility out the window like it means nothing, says to me you've never been put into the situation to use your entire toolkit.
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90 Pandaren Priest
12925
Woah, this thread just got awesome. As an edit to this statement.... Since when did utility cease to be utility because other specs can offer similar utility? That would be like comparing Discipline Priests to Holy Priests and claiming Discipline has one AoE healing tool, being reminded of the level 90 talent choice and disregarding it because Holy has it too.

More on topic... OP, it's not broken because bombing atonement to the exclusion of all else isn't going to provide the healing numbers that could be achieved by focusing on... healing. And focusing on healing isn't going to do half the DPS of a real DPS, not even close. So your argument isn't much of an argument at all.

All of that aside, when you throw damage modifiers into the mix I'd agree DPS to heal concepts can throw a wrench into balance. Case and point, heroic Lei Shi. I'm actually quite surprised they haven't implemented changes that prevent the healing portion of DPS to heal concepts from gaining the benefit of such modifiers.
Edited by Volios on 2/15/2013 5:45 PM PST
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