'Heal-PS' - The Elephant In The Room.

90 Pandaren Monk
14755
I play 2 monks and heal on both. Love it the idea of dps to healing. The only issue I find is I cant really fill a true healer role. Sure we fill that fun niche but like all of that type of healing is not under my direct control .. doestn feel much like a healer in a way.
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90 Worgen Druid
12130
02/14/2013 11:23 PMPosted by Fleurs


Lets hear it then:

- what unique utility does resto bring to a 25man raid that is not better covered by another healer?
- How does this justify having significantly lower effective healing than any other class this expansion?
- Why hasn't this utility persauded more top end guilds to bring resto druids to their lineup?
- Why aren't you lobbying against the druid buffs in 5.2, if you really think they are so unneeded?

So in your opinion Blizzard should just revert the 5.2 buffs and call it a day?

The fact that I have to explain just... Really means you have no idea about anything...

• Tank CDs provided by resto, along w/ symbiosis CDs.
• Vortex for a number of fights where it works (feng, will)
• HoTW to be an additional DPS for its duration (helps on fights where burst matters [for the record, that's every fight except the ones with long enrage timers])
• Typhoon on fights with adds (feng, will, tsulong)
• Ability to go bearform and tank/taunt (this is so helpful on heroic empress)
• Battle Rez for 100% health
• Instant roots/cyclone on fights with adds (will, lei shi)
• Stampeding Roar for fights that require quick movement (running out for velocity, running away on spirit kings, running out on elegon, running away on will, running away on vizier, blade lord, garalon, ambershaper, empress)
• Ability to toss out Innervate to someone else if we don't need it (there are indeed times where this happens)
• Aility to bash targets to prevent adds getting to someone (will, feng, tsulong, lei shi)
• Ability to heal on the move better than any other class


1) a tank damage reduction cd is hardly unique to the druid class.
2) You say vortex is good for feng, will, but you also list bash for feng and will. Listing two exclusive talents for the same fights is inflating this list. I might as well say I have the ability to switch to my rogue, and that's part of my utility as a resto druid.
3) HOTW I've never used it. Has anyone?
4) Typhoon is nice, I agree.
5) What? I've not done that particular fight yet.
6) Battle res given to two other classes. We have to glyph it for 100%, but ok, that's definitely something we do slightly better.
7) Wasting nature's swiftness on such a high tank damage fight? Unless you mean taking mass entanglement for the instant roots, in which case you shouldn't list both instant roots and typhoon as utility that a druid brings to the fight.
8) SR is nice. I think some of the fights listed there don't make sense, except if you mean SR as a personal speed boost (Garalon? Will?), but there's no doubt it's useful raid utility.
9) feh. It's not like we don't have ways to dump our mana, so inefficiently using our mana cd on another healer is such a rare thing. I think I've done it once so far in MoP.
10) Bash can be useful.
11) With our hots? Sure, it's nice. It's the reason I like my druid. Otoh, shaman and monk can both use their raid cds on the move. We have to stand still (unless we have symbiosis on a shaman, which we can't always have).

Now, back to Heal-PS (an odd thing to call it, since there's already an hps that means healing per second. I would call it .. "healers that can do damage too"), I'm wondering, does anyone have an idea how much damage a .. stormlash(?) totem does for the raid? Also, Fire elemental.

I'm not sure shamans can compete with discs or monks, but if stormlash is significant, it's damage the shaman is doing without appearing on meters.
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90 Troll Priest
9550
02/16/2013 07:52 AMPosted by Lifa
2) You say vortex is good for feng, will, but you also list bash for feng and will. Listing two exclusive talents for the same fights is inflating this list. I might as well say I have the ability to switch to my rogue, and that's part of my utility as a resto druid.


I will say it's comp dependent. Bash could be useful on Feng if you have plenty of CD's and some retard knocks them all different directions, and one gets close. However picking up cyclone and letting other classes just take minor CC and larger AOE talents, and using a vortex will definitely be useful.

02/16/2013 07:52 AMPosted by Lifa
7) Wasting nature's swiftness on such a high tank damage fight? Unless you mean taking mass entanglement for the instant roots, in which case you shouldn't list both instant roots and typhoon as utility that a druid brings to the fight.


It won't matter in the end if three adds get CC'd, you are DPS'ing one, and one gets lose because someone accidentally hit it, or you are down a CC. It will definitely prevent a death of a friendly player unless the tank can be on par and pick it up.
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90 Tauren Druid
8435
02/15/2013 05:20 PMPosted by Fleurs
All the crowd control mechanisms need to be lumped into 1 catagory.

I don't see how this is relevant. Whether it's in 1 huge category or on a whole generalized list, it doesn't make a difference.

Remove brez from that list. Since multiple classes bring it and, Come on. That glyph is a pvp glyph and you have to be a moron to use it in PvE.

No other class brings 100% brez... That's pretty nice to have, especially if it's a clutch moment where it's a tank and has to taunt immediately after they rez. I wouldn't take it so lightly.
How is it a "PvP" glyph? You cannot battlerez outside of regular BGs, and therefore makes it 100% useless in any other setting in PvP.

Due to superior options (LB, WG, RG) Not a single one of those are ever, under any circumstances, worth dropping for Brez in PvE. EVER.

...Superior? I'd say circumstantial. For both. LB being the one I'd change out. For you not to see its worth makes me sad, because you're really unwilling to try something new/have an open mind (guess that explains why you responded).

10% is poop and lets be honest here, it's only used when your cohealer had a brain fart and took a nap in the fire and you brezzed him.

Or maybe I don't need it. 10% is 10%, no matter if it's small or large, it's mana. You can't refute the argument; mana is mana. Any bit matters.

Ability to go bearform and taunt...I would not call that utility as theres a host of other classes that have taunts outside of the tanks.

Druids in bearform + barkskin/Might of Ursoc will have more survivability in tanking than any other healer. On H Empress I'd literally stand there for the CDs duration until I got the buff. Neither our hpal or rsham could do that.

And most guilds would prefer a healer do this job, if they are able, than a DPS. It's just how it is.

Also bash is rather laughable for you to stick this in here as healer utility...I feel you're really reaching to inflate your list, even though you have some very true points. Maybe for 5mans, but then again, thats another cc mechanism, along with others you mentioned, which also happen to share the same talent tier.

...Heroic Tsulong, Heroic Lei Shi, Heroic Will, Heroic Feng. Those are not 5mans.

The fact that you're willing to throw out your class's utility out the window like it means nothing, says to me you've never been put into the situation to use your entire toolkit.


You were reaching for specific, few and far between examples and also listing exclusive talents on the same fights. You were inflating your list on purpose to help your argument. That I have a problem with. No need to do that.

You'd notice I have never argued with the utility of Resto Druids. I think were great in that department. Dont need help there.

What we Resto Druids actually NEED is a complete overhaul of mushrooms and more encounters that offer consistent damage (p2 blade lord, stone guardians etc) rather than these constant near wipe mechanics that Disc/Pallies are OP for. Whether 5.2 fills this need remains to be seen.

Since they're going to flat buff us with 10%, I sense we'll be looking at generally the same kind of encounters and blizzard has no interest in actually fixing healer balance. Buff us, when really its a couple of other healing classes that need to be brought down to the pack. One by a very large margin.
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90 Troll Priest
9550
02/16/2013 11:06 AMPosted by Tonydanza
Since they're going to flat buff us with 10%, I sense we'll be looking at generally the same kind of encounters and blizzard has no interest in actually fixing healer balance. Buff us, when really its a couple of other healing classes that need to be brought down to the pack. One by a very large margin.


It's not fair to make this argument. It's like saying, buff all healers up to disc priests, but you are saying to nerf them all to be brought down to the pack. If you look at resto druids on most fights there tends to be a gap yes, but 10% buff is going to help stabilize you more with the rest of the healers. Just like disc priests are being brought down a little bit to be with the pack.
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90 Tauren Druid
8435
02/16/2013 11:11 AMPosted by Lillèth
Since they're going to flat buff us with 10%, I sense we'll be looking at generally the same kind of encounters and blizzard has no interest in actually fixing healer balance. Buff us, when really its a couple of other healing classes that need to be brought down to the pack. One by a very large margin.


It's not fair to make this argument. It's like saying, buff all healers up to disc priests, but you are saying to nerf them all to be brought down to the pack. If you look at resto druids on most fights there tends to be a gap yes, but 10% buff is going to help stabilize you more with the rest of the healers. Just like disc priests are being brought down a little bit to be with the pack.


I made no mention of nerf them all. Not sure where your'e getting this. I only specifically mentioned disc/holy pally being OP this tier. Holy Pallies are not as bad as they were earlier in the tier when they could just stack pvp set bonuses and just roll every healer in a raid environment. Disc and holy pally are not all healers. Dont misinterpret my comment as saying nerf all healers but druids. If anything, I have specifically stated that Resto Sham, Druid and holy priests are in pretty good spots. Its the other 2 healers (I am excluding monk as I have not raided with one in my team, nor have I used mine in a raid environment yet) that need to be tuned down.
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100 Human Paladin
13565
It's not a huge issue.

Any time there's REAL damage going out (ie: Empress P3 or anything like that), Atonement etc just don't cut it. The HPS is too low.

Besides, during periods of low damage, many other healers can output decent DPS. It sucks that pallies have to glyph for it, but if we do, we can do substantial damage. Holy priests actually have it the best, as they can go into Chastise chakra and do insane damage, then revert to a healing chakra at full mana and heal like crazy. It evens out in the end.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12515
Besides, during periods of low damage, many other healers can output decent DPS. It sucks that pallies have to glyph for it, but if we do, we can do substantial damage. Holy priests actually have it the best, as they can go into Chastise chakra and do insane damage, then revert to a healing chakra at full mana and heal like crazy. It evens out in the end.

Yeah, I mentioned earlier, I actually think Holy's model is stronger than Disc's. There's a reason I (as a spriest) run with a Holy OS instead of a Disc one, and it's not just because I like Holy better.
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100 Human Paladin
13565
02/16/2013 12:37 PMPosted by Kaels
Besides, during periods of low damage, many other healers can output decent DPS. It sucks that pallies have to glyph for it, but if we do, we can do substantial damage. Holy priests actually have it the best, as they can go into Chastise chakra and do insane damage, then revert to a healing chakra at full mana and heal like crazy. It evens out in the end.

Yeah, I mentioned earlier, I actually think Holy's model is stronger than Disc's. There's a reason I (as a spriest) run with a Holy OS instead of a Disc one, and it's not just because I like Holy better.


And it's not even like Chakra locks you out of your healing spells, you can put out mad DPS while you GAIN MANA, and then use that excess mana to throw out a CoH or something. Even though it's not affected by your current chakra (cause you'd still be in Chastise), it's still worth casting if you're sitting nearly at full mana.

The nice thing about holy priests is that you can scale yourself to the damage being dealt vs how much DPS you're doing. If light damage is going out, you can go 100% DPS. If slightly more damage is going out, you can spend 80% of your time casting DPS spells and the rest on spot heals where needed.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12515
And it's not even like Chakra locks you out of your healing spells, you can put out mad DPS while you GAIN MANA, and then use that excess mana to throw out a CoH or something. Even though it's not affected by your current chakra (cause you'd still be in Chastise), it's still worth casting if you're sitting nearly at full mana.

The nice thing about holy priests is that you can scale yourself to the damage being dealt vs how much DPS you're doing. If light damage is going out, you can go 100% DPS. If slightly more damage is going out, you can spend 80% of your time casting DPS spells and the rest on spot heals where needed.

Yep. It's fantastic. It's amazing. It may be the major reason we're actually progressing now. We've been going at a rate of almost 2 new bosses a week since I started seriously using my Holy spec; before that we were choosing between dropping a full DPS to make the boomy go Resto, or 2-healing fights where we really wanted 3.

We have a disc priest as a core healer and we tried having her adjust the DPS through Atonement when we 3-healed, but that wasn't anywhere near as successful. It wasn't even close to the same amount of damage I could put out, and it wasn't concentrated heavily enough at the times when we needed it.

Not knocking Disc, it's a great spec, but the fluid customizability of Holy is just so invaluable.
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100 Pandaren Priest
16350
02/16/2013 12:28 PMPosted by Dekkar
Besides, during periods of low damage, many other healers can output decent DPS.
I don't know about paladins, but I certainly haven't been able to put out significant dps numbers on druid/shaman. Doesn't stop me from tossing a Moonfire or Lava Burst when mana is comfortable, but it's mainly to keep me busy, not contribute much.

And that's honestly the problem. Other healers should be more capable of doing useful damage during downtime. Disc should be trading a little bit of that damage potential away in order to auto-heal, so their damage ought to be lowered, and Atonement increased to a 2:1 heal.

I seriously love Atonement, but I should not outdps other healers when faceroll-farming.
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100 Undead Priest
10540
I personally think that these systems are great. The fistweaving and attonement playstyles won't effectively add another player to your raid because when your attonement healing you're doing less healing than a healer and less damage than a dps. If this isn't true for you, you have one of two things: Bad DPS or Bad healers. All in all, it's a little dps boost when you need it, and a good way to heal when there's some downtime and your group is spread out.

So all in all, I don't think it's an elephant in the room, and I think Blizzard has this scenario under control.

I do forsee a nerf to attonement with damage buffs though. That would not surprise me. Like on amber shaper.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
I posted something about this concept for Monks a while back and I still think it's a great way to add Utility without adding another generic damage reduction or healing CD.

I've always felt that the way to fight homogenization is to present Raid Leaders with tough choices each of which can be successful if used correctly. In the past it was about what niche the healer filled. Now that every healer has to have a full kit for Raid and/or Tank damage those choices are all about Utility.

So do you take a healer that can do respectable DPS in order to help with Enrage timers or a healer that has very strong CD's? It's only an elephant if Blizzard skews one type of Utility too far over another.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
I love my atonement. Take it away or nerf it and I will cut you. And then heal it up. And then cut you again. And then... Oh god I'm a healing addict.
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98 Blood Elf Priest
8265
I have a question about atonement. Some of the numbers people are throwing out seem extremely high. I used to DPS on my rogue in the past and would always be near the top or top DPS so I am thinking it might be my current gearing, but not sure. I usually don't have time to just sit and atonement 100% but when I can, it is usually 35K or so DPS. However, most fights with normal healing, etc... thrown in, I sit around 20-25K DPS.

My rotation is normally HF on CD > Smite > Penance > Smite x2 > Penance. It seems I am really doing something wrong as my DPS numbers aren't even in the same realms as many of the ones posted here.
Edited by Taihou on 2/19/2013 11:11 AM PST
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90 Human Priest
5860
. It seems I am really doing something wrong

Those doing more dps with atonement are stacking more haste/crit. Mastery doesn't help your dps. That, or the numbers are from gimmick fights like Elegon.
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90 Human Priest
10190
02/15/2013 04:25 PMPosted by Tonydanza
Remove brez from that list. Since multiple classes bring it and, Come on. That glyph is a pvp glyph and you have to be a moron to use it in PvE. Due to superior options (LB, WG, RG) Not a single one of those are ever, under any circumstances, worth dropping for Brez in PvE. EVER. Therefore that's not utility in PvE.


Um, to be honest as a healer I'd like to be brez'ed on fights that are dealing a crap ton of raid/group damage constantly with as much health as possible (well that and having my mindbender up for mana since hyming isn't always an option right at that moment). And if I'm the tank I'd like to come up with as much health as possible, especially if I have to immediately grab a boss. Sure I have cd's but 100% starting health is a lot easier to deal with then trying to heal me back up while the boss eats my face.

All Druids I've ever raided with, including the time I mained a Pally tank have had that glyphed.

I think it's you who are uninformed.
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90 Human Priest
10190
I have a question about atonement. Some of the numbers people are throwing out seem extremely high. I used to DPS on my rogue in the past and would always be near the top or top DPS so I am thinking it might be my current gearing, but not sure. I usually don't have time to just sit and atonement 100% but when I can, it is usually 35K or so DPS. However, most fights with normal healing, etc... thrown in, I sit around 20-25K DPS.

My rotation is normally HF on CD > Smite > Penance > Smite x2 > Penance. It seems I am really doing something wrong as my DPS numbers aren't even in the same realms as many of the ones posted here.


You can also glyph HF to make it instant - there by reducing your time spent building up AA and giving you higher DPS.

I honestly wouldn't worry about DPS numbers. As was mentioned they are using a different kind of build to help achieve those numbers. And there are gimmick fights or ones with huge damage modifiers that can really make your numbers sore. Which is fun to watch but not really a good indicator of anything.
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100 Night Elf Druid
5925
02/18/2013 04:23 PMPosted by Nicé
All in all, it's a little dps boost when you need it, and a good way to heal when there's some downtime and your group is spread out.


...which is something most healers can't bring if they try. Seems to me you're proving that it *is* a problem -- a raid with at least one dps-healer has an advantage over a raid without.

02/20/2013 06:00 AMPosted by Calamai
I'd like to be brez'ed on fights that are dealing a crap ton of raid/group damage constantly with as much health as possible


And which fights are those exactly?

Epicenter - not constant. You can be brez'd right after one ends and have plenty of time for you or another healer to get you to full before he does it again (not even counting the fact that you're supposed to, you know, STOP HIM).

Voodoo Dolls - only damages specific people. Unless you're rezzed at exactly the wrong time you won't get picked without time to prepare.

Titan Gas - very not constant, it's a small minority of the fight.

Attenuation, Force and Verve - not constant, on a cooldown.

Unseen Strike - on a cooldown.

Rain of Blades - on a cooldown.

I could go on, but I think the point has been made. During a heavy raid damage phase the other healers are probably too busy to brez you anyway, and after one you have 10+ seconds before it comes again (in some of these cases much longer).
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80 Tauren Druid
2115
Hahaha.

I see so much exaggeration and hyperbole in this thread.

"OMG, I see Disc doing 50k dps ALL THE TIME".

Maybe on a damage-amplified fight, when real dps are doing 140k.

Healing classes are in a constant pendulum-swing of flavor of the month. Paladins with 4-peice PvP set anyone?
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