'Heal-PS' - The Elephant In The Room.

90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
02/20/2013 06:55 AMPosted by Calonderiel
All in all, it's a little dps boost when you need it, and a good way to heal when there's some downtime and your group is spread out.


...which is something most healers can't bring if they try. Seems to me you're proving that it *is* a problem -- a raid with at least one dps-healer has an advantage over a raid without.

I'd like to be brez'ed on fights that are dealing a crap ton of raid/group damage constantly with as much health as possible


And which fights are those exactly?

Epicenter - not constant. You can be brez'd right after one ends and have plenty of time for you or another healer to get you to full before he does it again (not even counting the fact that you're supposed to, you know, STOP HIM).

Voodoo Dolls - only damages specific people. Unless you're rezzed at exactly the wrong time you won't get picked without time to prepare.

Titan Gas - very not constant, it's a small minority of the fight.

Attenuation, Force and Verve - not constant, on a cooldown.

Unseen Strike - on a cooldown.

Rain of Blades - on a cooldown.

I could go on, but I think the point has been made. During a heavy raid damage phase the other healers are probably too busy to brez you anyway, and after one you have 10+ seconds before it comes again (in some of these cases much longer).

I don't see how these "CDs" you're posting about have anything to do with the point: the glyph has its place. When I glyph for brez it's because we only have 1 tank, and in case someone dies, I don't have to waste the time healing someone up after rezzing them. And there ARE oh-!@#$ moments where someone does inconveniently, but need to be brought up asap or else even more %^-* will hit the fan. There are numerous fights where it has its place, and I'm sure you can figure out when and where it matters.
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100 Pandaren Priest
16875
Hahaha.

I see so much exaggeration and hyperbole in this thread.

"OMG, I see Disc doing 50k dps ALL THE TIME".

Maybe on a damage-amplified fight, when real dps are doing 140k.

Healing classes are in a constant pendulum-swing of flavor of the month. Paladins with 4-peice PvP set anyone?
Disc will not consistently do 50k. But 20-25k is entirely reasonable, and the issue is that this doesn't negate healing duties.

I checked numbers on my druid recently, after nuking through a dungeon where only the most basic healing was required.10-12k. And that took a *significant* loss in healing potential to accomplish. It's not really fair that a resto druid hell-bent on dealing damage would dish out less dps than a disc priest facerolling smites for the no-brainer healing.
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90 Gnome Monk
7430
02/20/2013 04:23 PMPosted by Breathkeeper
I checked numbers on my druid recently, after nuking through a dungeon where only the most basic healing was required.10-12k. And that took a *significant* loss in healing potential to accomplish. It's not really fair that a resto druid hell-bent on dealing damage would dish out less dps than a disc priest facerolling smites for the no-brainer healing.


Sure it is, unless you want to claim that it's fair that the disc priest (or any other non-druid healer) can't do a darn thing about a party member dying until the fight is over but a druid can. Different classes are different and all...
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90 Night Elf Mage
10330
02/20/2013 06:39 PMPosted by Linnelle
I checked numbers on my druid recently, after nuking through a dungeon where only the most basic healing was required.10-12k. And that took a *significant* loss in healing potential to accomplish. It's not really fair that a resto druid hell-bent on dealing damage would dish out less dps than a disc priest facerolling smites for the no-brainer healing.


Sure it is, unless you want to claim that it's fair that the disc priest (or any other non-druid healer) can't do a darn thing about a party member dying until the fight is over but a druid can. Different classes are different and all...


This is a silly argument. Battle ressing is not as rare as it once was. It is available to quite a few specs across all three roles. Basically, it is not particularly hard to get enough Battle ressers. Also, Symbiosis-ing a paladin could provide this as well.

Rebirth is not comparable to adding DPS without a loss in healing. "Different classes are different" works in many situations, but not this one.

That said, I'm not quite sure of my opinion on atonement. If the damage proves to be too much, I'd hope they'd alter atonement mechanics, so as to not nerf the healing portion.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12745
02/20/2013 08:40 PMPosted by Laanah
That said, I'm not quite sure of my opinion on atonement. If the damage proves to be too much, I'd hope they'd alter atonement mechanics, so as to not nerf the healing portion.

I don't think the damage is too much at all in terms of having an unacceptable effect on encounters. It's a fraction of a real DPS - around 25-30% on average, going up to maybe 50-60% in short bursts, certainly not enough to allow anyone to start cutting DPS. It just makes it a bit easier to beat an enrage timer with the normal number of DPS when you're undergeared. I don't think that's a horrible thing (but then I'm not a big fan of tight enrages as a difficulty-tuning mechanism anyway).

One could argue that the healing is too much considering the damage output (especially on damage-multiplier fights), but then one gets into the sticky situation of Disc not having viable alternatives because Blizzard flat-out refuses to think about fixing Disc's single-target mechanics.
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90 Gnome Monk
7430
02/20/2013 08:40 PMPosted by Laanah


Sure it is, unless you want to claim that it's fair that the disc priest (or any other non-druid healer) can't do a darn thing about a party member dying until the fight is over but a druid can. Different classes are different and all...


This is a silly argument. Battle ressing is not as rare as it once was. It is available to quite a few specs across all three roles. Basically, it is not particularly hard to get enough Battle ressers. Also, Symbiosis-ing a paladin could provide this as well.

Rebirth is not comparable to adding DPS without a loss in healing. "Different classes are different" works in many situations, but not this one.

That said, I'm not quite sure of my opinion on atonement. If the damage proves to be too much, I'd hope they'd alter atonement mechanics, so as to not nerf the healing portion.


Not all groups have warlocks or dks so yes this is relevant although I will grant not as ridiculously as in previous expansions. The b-res on the 100k dpser or, even worse, a splattered tank, is going to provide far more damage than either disc or mistweaver can provide in the same fight, especially if healing requirements are non-trivial.
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100 Pandaren Priest
16875
Damage is a generic thing that everyone can do. Rebirth is a very VERY specific ability and if you want to nitpick then you'll have to consider every class ability in the game. Yeah, a battle-rez is great, but if you have another person that can do it, then yours is useless. Hymn of Hope? That's good no matter how many priests you have, and doesn't require anyone to screw up and die to benefit.

This is not about the balance of class-specific abilities, it's the specific imbalances of Mistweaver and Discipline. Holy priests can do more damage than disc, but that isn't a problem because it requires them to lose healing time. Druids and shamans (and I would guess paladins too) don't even get to make that decision, it's simply out of reach.
Edited by Breathkeeper on 2/21/2013 8:46 AM PST
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90 Human Priest
17065
I really don't know why this can be called 'the elephant in the room'.

Atonement has been in the game since...wrath? To bring it up now feels awfully like "I have nothing worthy to grumble about disc priests so this will have to do".

Or maybe somebody is just butthurt because a mistweaver or a disc beat them at dps in a heroic. Or they got sat in a raid because of such a mechanic. Or they don't like to DPS while they heal. Hey - there used to be a time where I hated the whole "you MUST dps for max output" thing, I got over it, I don't mind it now. Sort of fun and mindless, it is different. I'm ok with it.

And it is not a new mechanic, the fact that damage modifier fights turns this mechanic into a gimmick thing is not new. NOT NEW, I SAY. We've been doing this in Cata, Wrath, even. So why are you only bringing it up now? It is because blizz forced it onto us with the new talent system and we can't opt out of it? Blizz certainly seems to like it, thus making mistweavers. It is 'different'. It is not 'imbalance'. It is another flavour blizz added so things are not as 'boring'. Live with it.

If a raid has to bring two discs for the sole reason of 'smite heal enrage' and not the many, many, many things a disc brings to a raid, that raid is better off bringing a pure DPS that does 2x the dps of both discs combined and telling said disc to focus more on healing and less on the pewing.

02/14/2013 03:53 PMPosted by Eclipsé
I mean...40k dps is quite a bit.


Yes, 40k really is quite a bit....in a heroic.
Edited by Zamboozle on 2/21/2013 9:48 AM PST
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100 Pandaren Priest
16875
Atonement does help to fill the fractional gap between N healers and N+1, and that's a huge boon to any group that has it as an option.

I'd simply like to see other healers get some added pewpew. Actually, I'd prefer it more as a pvp thing, healer fights being a strict test of mana longevity is dumb, but it applies in pve too. Having the option to decide when to spend some mana and time on damage would add more interesting depth to healing in WoW. It's the natural next step of the 'mana matters' development.
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90 Night Elf Mage
10330
I don't think the damage is too much at all in terms of having an unacceptable effect on encounters. It's a fraction of a real DPS - around 25-30% on average, going up to maybe 50-60% in short bursts, certainly not enough to allow anyone to start cutting DPS. It just makes it a bit easier to beat an enrage timer with the normal number of DPS when you're undergeared. I don't think that's a horrible thing (but then I'm not a big fan of tight enrages as a difficulty-tuning mechanism anyway).

One could argue that the healing is too much considering the damage output (especially on damage-multiplier fights), but then one gets into the sticky situation of Disc not having viable alternatives because Blizzard flat-out refuses to think about fixing Disc's single-target mechanics.


You may have misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that the damage is too much, rather that if it DOES become an issue, that the healing it provides is unaltered. Personally, I don't see much an issue with it on live.

Not all groups have warlocks or dks so yes this is relevant although I will grant not as ridiculously as in previous expansions. The b-res on the 100k dpser or, even worse, a splattered tank, is going to provide far more damage than either disc or mistweaver can provide in the same fight, especially if healing requirements are non-trivial.


In the past, I'd agree. Recently, though, battle ressing is a utility that has been spread across several different classes / specs. I never said that it wasn't as powerful as having healing / DPS; A well-used Brez is invaluable. What I did say, though, is that the two aren't comparable. One is utility that quite a few specs have, while the other is mostly unique.
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90 Draenei Paladin
10900
02/21/2013 09:46 AMPosted by Zamboozle
Atonement has been in the game since...wrath? To bring it up now feels awfully like "I have nothing worthy to grumble about disc priests so this will have to do".


I think the issue people have with the dps and healing Disc brings is because the raw utility behind it makes Disc priests most desirable and many healers are finding themselves ousted due to such mechanics, which is not healthy for the healing community at large.

When many progression guilds are specifically recruiting Disc priest for the very fact that they can provide decent dps numbers while maintaining their healing, you can no longer trivialize the importance of those numbers.
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90 Human Priest
17065
02/21/2013 01:22 PMPosted by Ceresc
When many progression guilds are specifically recruiting Disc priest for the very fact that they can provide decent dps numbers while maintaining their healing, you can no longer trivialize the importance of those numbers.


.....

last time I checked progression guilds were wanting discs in for POH DA SS abuse to trivialize raid mechanics (ahem, heroic empress, ahem). Not for their DPS. That's more like icing/extra.

You CANNOT maintain 'good healing numbers' when you are smiting unless it's a damage modifier boss, and disc doing stupid amazing on damage modifier fights is nothing new.

Again, barking up the wrong tree.
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90 Draenei Paladin
10900
last time I checked progression guilds were wanting discs in for POH DA SS abuse to trivialize raid mechanics (ahem, heroic empress, ahem). Not for their DPS. That's more like icing/extra.

You CANNOT maintain 'good healing numbers' when you are smiting unless it's a damage modifier boss, and disc doing stupid amazing on damage modifier fights is nothing new.

Again, barking up the wrong tree.


Being that the very fact that my RLs are pushing for a priest, for the DPS it brings and not the SS, tells me a completely different story. In fact, their concern wasn't even whether or not they were Disc or Holy, just that they knew how to dps in heal spec.

And my point is not that doing amazing on damage modified fights is new, but that it is now an issue because it has begun to create a large gap between the healing classes.
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90 Human Priest
17065
02/21/2013 01:22 PMPosted by Ceresc
I think the issue people have with the dps and healing Disc brings is because the raw utility behind it makes Disc priests most desirable and many healers are finding themselves ousted due to such mechanics, which is not healthy for the healing community at large.


Being that the very fact that my RLs are pushing for a priest, for the DPS it brings and not the SS, tells me a completely different story. In fact, their concern wasn't even whether or not they were Disc or Holy, just that they knew how to dps in heal spec.


Your posts confuse me (pointing disc priests as the 'big bad' then saying your RL doesn't care what spec the priest is as a personal example). As does your raid lead (if he's going for 2.5 why isn't he going specifically for a disc or a MW and settling for holy as the .5 who can't heal while DPSing, which is the point of 'heal-p-s'). This also sounds like a 10. Where the difference between 2.5 heals and 3 heals is large and if you take issue with it, then the only thing I can say is "this is how 10s are when it comes to encounter numbers and you have DPS who can't meet enrage, or healers who can't 2 heal" - which is also nothing new - the issue has been here ever since Wrath and 10s were taking seriously. Did you 2 or 3 heal sarth10 3d? We actually had to go in with a shaman in a funky 50/50 spec to pull it off.

The healing-deeps thing is not going to be balanced so 'non dpsing healers' will get 'a fair share of the raid pie' unless you are asking for a said 'dps' spells to do so trivial damage that the healers are only casting them for the heal - which is against what the original design is for, or that or you're asking that the current non-deeps-healing classes also has some sort of "I can do 40k damage too!" mechanic force-wedged into their spellbook (so everything is the same! Yay same-ness!'), which by then all classes will also be homogenized. Looking at how much disc priests !@#$%ed about 'must dps for max output' back then (I admit, I was one of them), I can only imagine how much every other class is going to whine if they also get some sort of 'you must target boss and push dps button' mechanic forced onto them as well.

I see it as different. It makes healers different. It's also a utility, and every class has utility. And when progression is on the menu, raidleads are going to look towards cutting corners to get a kill in and SOMEBODY is going to be shafted in the name of progression - whether it be a DPS who isn't fit for the encounter, a tank that's bad for the encounter (moment of silence for DKs on garajal here folks) or if you're in a raid where the DPS is just not cutting it whether because hey're undergeared or underskilled, the natural course of action is to cut healers. That is also nothing new since raiding started to go into mainstream - the moment enrage is on the line, healers are always the first to go (thus making something like a 'survival of the best' thing going on). Let me tell you that if your raid can make it with 2 heals for a kill, you'll be looking for a DPS and a heal-p-s won't even be on the line - that's just the way how progression and raidleads who wants to cut corners is.

On the upside, once you hit tsulong your RL will be looking for more healers and hybrids and the 'heal-p-s' disc will either be benching or go holy or shadow in the name of progression.

Let it also be mentioned that it was the very healers themselves who whined and cried and whined some more about not being able to do 'ok dps' when needed to (mostly, dailies...inb4 'GO SPEC SHADOW/BOOMKIN/WHATEVER'). So now Blizz buffs holy chakra and hardwires smite healing to disc and creates a class which basically revolves around putting damage out to heal. They also went out of their way to give healing abilities to DPS and tanks to 'even it up' a little. And now healers are whining about said healers doing too much (too much being 20-30% of real DPS) and wants it nerfed?

That just makes my head hurt.
Edited by Zamboozle on 2/22/2013 7:27 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
02/22/2013 05:08 AMPosted by Ceresc
Being that the very fact that my RLs are pushing for a priest, for the DPS it brings and not the SS, tells me a completely different story.


Would guess that is because you are a 10 man raider and that slight amount of dps when having issues with enrage does play a factor.

Regardless of the rest of the posts, i think disc and monk dps contributions are fine.
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90 Draenei Paladin
10900
02/22/2013 07:00 AMPosted by Zamboozle
(pointing disc priests as the 'big bad' then saying your RL doesn't care what spec the priest is as a personal example)


The reason I specified Disc, was because they are the ones with Atonement and SS, which is the main topic of the thread and most people are not aware of the dmg that Holy can put out.
My RL stating he didn't care which spec as long as they could dps, was my personal example that he isn't as concerned with SS as he is with the dps utility of priests.

02/22/2013 07:00 AMPosted by Zamboozle
"this is how 10s are when it comes to encounter numbers and you have DPS who can't meet enrage, or healers who can't 2 heal"


Stating that, "this is how it had always been, suck it up and deal with it," doesn't make it any less of a concern. Because it hasn't been a big deal in the past, doesn't mean it isn't a big deal now. More and more raid groups are finding it increasingly difficult to competitively raid without a priest, because of SS, because of dmg modified fights.

Healing classes feeling like they are worthless, not because they are bad healers, but because the "cutting corners" progressive ability of priest outweigh the the utility/ability of other healers, is a bad thing.

02/22/2013 07:00 AMPosted by Zamboozle
(so everything is the same! Yay same-ness!')


I never asked for sameness. I wouldn't want to push it on anyone else either. This does not mean however, that numbers shouldn't be tweaked. I never once stated that their play style should be changed or that they should be nerfed to the ground, but tweaking those numbers so that their is a better balance to throughput is necessary. That isn't a bad thing. Blizzard didn't create 1 healer class, they created 5 and with MoP they downgraded the need for anything besides priests and paladins, especially after the nerfs to MW.

02/22/2013 07:00 AMPosted by Zamboozle
That just makes my head hurt.


Of course, coming up with excuses for why you shouldn't be balanced, would make anyone's head hurt.
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90 Human Priest
13720
02/22/2013 05:08 AMPosted by Ceresc
Being that the very fact that my RLs are pushing for a priest, for the DPS it brings and not the SS, tells me a completely different story. In fact, their concern wasn't even whether or not they were Disc or Holy, just that they knew how to dps in heal spec.


if people are recruiting discs for the passive healing through atonement as opposed to spirit shell and barrier then i don't know what to tell you besides that's a pretty piss poor reason and is more a product of poor or substandard production out of other parts of the raiding core.

take a look at how hard blizzard is working to balance fistweaving on the ptr. the fact that they are NOT doing this with atonement means that the way it is currently working is something they seem to approve of. the hardest thing about the discipline spec, balance-wise, is/was/always will be absorbs. You can see this through the wild ups and downs that disc goes through, from shield spamming brokenness in ulduar/toc/icc to the spec's lackluster performance and horrid mana issues in 4.1... from it's huge strengths in damage prevention in dragon soul to its relative weakness at the start of t14 (not terrible, just not doing as well as other healers) to where we are now with it totally cheesing lots of mechanics.

Absorbs are just hard to balance, but blizzard wants disc to be a mostly absorb healer. I'll be interested to see where 5.2 takes us. at least they are actively trying to do different things to make the different healing specs balance out. some things will work and some wont, only time and testing can tell us what will be the result.
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90 Human Priest
17065
02/22/2013 07:50 AMPosted by Ceresc
That isn't a bad thing. Blizzard didn't create 1 healer class, they created 5 and with MoP they downgraded the need for anything besides priests and paladins, especially after the nerfs to MW.


Quoting this. I just had to. It says so much.

02/22/2013 07:50 AMPosted by Ceresc
Stating that, "this is how it had always been, suck it up and deal with it," doesn't make it any less of a concern. Because it hasn't been a big deal in the past, doesn't mean it isn't a big deal now. More and more raid groups are finding it increasingly difficult to competitively raid without a priest, because of SS, because of dmg modified fights.


For some reason you are no longer arguing about 'heal-p-s taking my raid spot" and it's now "SS makes discs OP" (which per your personal experience, your heal lead can care less about), as Tsy said, absorbs are being fixed in a rollar coaster method. And Dmg mod fights hasn't changed since TBC. At this point you are coming off as having an axe to grind against priests instead of heal-p-s.

The fact that you think that healers get shafted come progression enrage fights has never been an issue in the past 'til now' sort of tells me you've never really raided seriously 'in the past', or paid attention enough, that or you only realize and acknowledge NOW since you've been burned or witnessed somebody being burned.

Unless blizzard takes enrages out completely, this will always be a fact. It's been like this since Vanilla Naxx 40. It's not something that can be 'fixed' by 'tweaking numbers' due to the very nature of varying performances on raiders (bad DPS will mean healers gets cut, good DPS means you can carry an extra healer).



Of course, coming up with excuses for why you shouldn't be balanced, would make anyone's head hurt.


I'm actually looking forward to 5.2, thank you.

02/22/2013 08:01 AMPosted by Tsilyi
f people are recruiting discs for the passive healing through atonement as opposed to spirit shell and barrier then i don't know what to tell you besides that's a pretty piss poor reason and is more a product of poor or substandard production out of other parts of the raiding core.


What he said x 100. I will share my Light Flaked Tuna sammich with you.
Edited by Zamboozle on 2/22/2013 8:33 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
15480
02/22/2013 08:02 AMPosted by Zamboozle
Light Flaked Tuna sammich


Most important question in this thread.

Miracle Whip or Mayo?
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90 Human Priest
17065
02/22/2013 08:07 AMPosted by Sadiemay
Light Flaked Tuna sammich


Most important question in this thread.

Miracle Whip or Mayo?


MIRACLE WHIP
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