Resto druids, raid design and efficiency:

100 Troll Druid
10320
Our class HAVE a toolkit problem because of Raid Design... My whole post was about that...

The problem is that they will not change the Raid Design right now, or at last not change to something that caters well to our toolkit.

Why?

1- Changing from burst damage on raid, back to more constant less spiky damage on raid, and bursty damage on tank would make fights really easy now that every healer toolkit has ways to deal with aoe damage.

2- Adding more movement causes class imbalance for healers and DPS's alike, some classes just don't work while moving.
The more movement you add to a fight, the more a hunter and warlock starts to seem a MUST have, and an Arcane mage, boomkin, even elemental Shaman worse.
The problem is that worse starts with -5%, but add enough movement to make us the best healer for that fight, and those DPS's will be doing half of the other DPS's damage.

3- Going back in design is a bad thing for a group of developers that took the head of the game in Cataclysm. Going back to the WoTLK model would seem like a failure.
Also the old model had huge problems too, and we moved away from it because of that. Healers were a mindless spam in most cases, instead of having options and complete toolkits.
It makes no sense make to game worse to everyone just to help 1 class in one spec.

That is why i think we need a rework of some sort, but not a numerical buff, or a pure increase in HPS. That would be gimmick buff to make druids happy without solving the issues that will arise again in the near future.

That is why i made suggestions that either tried to solve the problem, or added us a utility so great that would make guilds bring us with worse HPS, just because we had that powerful ability.
( Like rshamans now days, their healing is kind of low, but HTT, Ascendence, SL and reincarnate are a too powerful utility toolkit to pass, so guilds love shamans in their core, and shamans can feel like they are contributing when they use such powerful abilities to save the raid from a wipe. )
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100 Worgen Druid
13430
Have you tested mushrooms on the PTR Satan?

I get the feeling many druids just do not realize how potent they can be...
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
02/23/2013 08:10 PMPosted by Alphadruid
The basic idea was to compare what Fleurs was doing (looking at three parses all by one player) to the approach she has been critical of (using raidbots to look at the parses of many thousands of different players raiding in many different guilds).


She was using spell breakdowns to show that Garalon was not, in fact, totally catered to druids. Raidbots can't do what she used WoL for, though obviously it would be nice if it could.

I'm not disagreeing with the sentiment, I'm just pointing out that the hypocrisy you're implying isn't real.
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100 Troll Druid
10320
Have you tested mushrooms on the PTR Satan?

I get the feeling many druids just do not realize how potent they can be...


Its really powerful in this current design.

Last time i checked the entire value could Crit, and was affected by Mastery and by our new 10% passive.

This makes it heals for over 600k, if you are playing 10-M in a stacked fight it is a 60k aoe heal with a CD and some ramp up time.

I found that they fill up rather fast, way faster then most people suggested in fact.
But they still take some time, and if the raid moves... it is lost.

I said it, if it was 1 Big Mushroom, instead of 3, even if it had a 2sec cast or something, and carried half of any previous stored value if you changed it from position, we would have a great toolkit, and i would not ask for any other change.

But the fact is that mushrooms will see much more teorycrafting then it will ever see game play because of the way its placed and the amount of movement on raids.

We can't really predict how the raid will need to move in the next 45-60 sec... Thats the problem in my opinion.
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5 Human Warlock
0
Have you tested mushrooms on the PTR Satan?

I get the feeling many druids just do not realize how potent they can be...


Its really powerful in this current design.

Last time i checked the entire value could Crit, and was affected by Mastery and by our new 10% passive.

This makes it heals for over 600k, if you are playing 10-M in a stacked fight it is a 60k aoe heal with a CD and some ramp up time.

I found that they fill up rather fast, way faster then most people suggested in fact.
But they still take some time, and if the raid moves... it is lost.

I said it, if it was 1 Big Mushroom, instead of 3, even if it had a 2sec cast or something, and carried half of any previous stored value if you changed it from position, we would have a great toolkit, and i would not ask for any other change.

But the fact is that mushrooms will see much more teorycrafting then it will ever see game play because of the way its placed and the amount of movement on raids.

We can't really predict how the raid will need to move in the next 45-60 sec... Thats the problem in my opinion.


60K per person doesn't seem like all that much since we will be pushing 500K health but I guess it's basically free so I can't really complain (actually it scales with health doesn't it) and that should be enough to get the raid off the floor after a big AoE. I know I would put it to good use during H Empress where we stack at two pre-designated trapping points.
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100 Troll Druid
10320
With 500k HP's, we will have mushrooms hitting for ~75k probably.

A instant heal that brings the entire Raid HP up by 15% with a low mana cost is amazingly good.
If only it was reliable...

Think about it, we pre-hot, filling mushroom, them damage happens, we WG and WM:B, then renew reju on some targets that its falling off. It gives us what we mostly needed, some way to bring people out of danger of dying in a controlled way.

Sad part is that such control is fixated in a point of the map and requires time to ramp up...
Really need them to make at last 50% remain when you change mushroom position...

They could also make a 1min CD Spell that relocates all three mushrooms to a designated place, would work like a charm too.
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100 Night Elf Druid
6355
02/24/2013 12:52 AMPosted by Sàtàn
Last time i checked the entire value could Crit, and was affected by Mastery and by our new 10% passive.


Since the charge-up value is based on overheal in the first place, isn't this technically a double dip? What is that going to look like in higher gear tiers if you stack mastery?

02/24/2013 12:52 AMPosted by Sàtàn
We can't really predict how the raid will need to move in the next 45-60 sec


That depends a lot on the fight, doesn't it? There are some fights where people will move around but keep coming back to the same places (Will, Sha of Fear) and some where there isn't much movement in some phases in the first place (Protectors, Mel'jarak, Shek'zeer).
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100 Worgen Druid
13430


Its really powerful in this current design.

Last time i checked the entire value could Crit, and was affected by Mastery and by our new 10% passive.

This makes it heals for over 600k, if you are playing 10-M in a stacked fight it is a 60k aoe heal with a CD and some ramp up time.

I found that they fill up rather fast, way faster then most people suggested in fact.
But they still take some time, and if the raid moves... it is lost.

I said it, if it was 1 Big Mushroom, instead of 3, even if it had a 2sec cast or something, and carried half of any previous stored value if you changed it from position, we would have a great toolkit, and i would not ask for any other change.

But the fact is that mushrooms will see much more teorycrafting then it will ever see game play because of the way its placed and the amount of movement on raids.

We can't really predict how the raid will need to move in the next 45-60 sec... Thats the problem in my opinion.


60K per person doesn't seem like all that much since we will be pushing 500K health but I guess it's basically free so I can't really complain (actually it scales with health doesn't it) and that should be enough to get the raid off the floor after a big AoE. I know I would put it to good use during H Empress where we stack at two pre-designated trapping points.


Ahh see, this is the big misconception IMO.

You do not need the whole raid to be near them...

They split the healing between any targets in range, which means you could potentially just heal one person who was at 20% health and have a LOH type heal. Or hit 2 People at 40%. Or three people at 65%.... You would get 3/4 of its potential, and a much more potent lifesaving heal in all the above low scenarios, and they are all much easier to attain.

If you hit 4 melee at 20% health, you would bring them all to 50% health...

You could also spread them out, if each individual shroom just hits 1-2 people, thats a 200k-100K heal for each.

I really think people underestimate their flexibility and exaggerate the movement aspect. In my testing it was not that hard at all to hit a couple people. People are constrained by this notion you need to hit everyone at once, which is completely unneeded. But yes, when there is stacking opportunities, it will be really nice as well.

And honestly, I enjoy the fact you will really need to learn fights and your raids strategy to use them right. Spells with a high skill cap and are not always a bad thing...
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100 Human Paladin
14065
02/23/2013 10:28 PMPosted by Sàtàn
1- Changing from burst damage on raid, back to more constant less spiky damage on raid, and bursty damage on tank would make fights really easy now that every healer toolkit has ways to deal with aoe damage.


Burst damage on tanks is bad. It forces us to gear for only stam and takes away interesting gearing options, and devalues active mitigation. No. This can't happen and the developers moved specifically away from it for those reasons.
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90 Tauren Druid
14415
Did I miss something here? It seems people are only taking into consideration the new effect of Mushrooms and not adding in the old effect(Which I believe is still there).

With 500k health, 30% mastery, 20% crit and +10% passive we are talking insane healing from these in 10 player and possibly 25.

Lets start with the base healing from WM which is 15k x3=45k x6=270k divided by 10 for DR and you have a starting point of 27k each player without ANY crits. 500k +30%=650k divided by 10 for 65k+27k=92k, lets double that on 2 players with crit for 1,104,000+10% from the passive for a grand total of 1,214,400 healing across 6+ targets or an average of 121,440 per player in a 10m or 48,576 on 25m.
Edited by Primechuck on 2/24/2013 2:40 PM PST
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6 Night Elf Mage
0
I'll throw my 2 cents in for what it's worth.

Druids have a major problem with overhealing. Our hots get sniped by direct healers. The easiest and simplest way to FIX the druid tool kit is to change our hots.

For example, rejuvenation ticks should tick for twice as much (50K a tick or more), but have far fewer ticks. Now a druids hots heal for a significant amount, fellow healers see a player stabilized more quickly by a hot, and they back off and focus on a target that is in bigger trouble - and the rest of the hot doesn't get sniped. Viola.

In my opinion trying to McGuyver wild mushrooms to work with "overhealing" is wasteful. Sure blooming the dang things may cost a small amount of mana, but think of all the WASTED mana that went into overhealing to buff the darn things in the first place. Why not just simply BUFF mushrooms and be done with it? This whole business with mushrooms buffed by overhealing is nothing but the devs trying to find the most ridiculous way to fix the problem simply to shove this darn spell down our throats. It's a bad spell. I realize it can't be scrapped - but there are better ways to fix the problem.

EVERY SINGLE AOE HEAL IN THE RESTO DRUID TOOLKIT HAS A COOLDOWN.

Let that sink in.

Blooming mushrooms - Cooldown. Wild Growth - Cooldown. Efforvesence - cooldown. (I haven't fully leveled my monk, so I can't speak for them, however) every other healer has a spammable AOE heal. Yes, it destroys mana to spam your aoe heal, but cripes - give druids that piece of the tool kit - make it mana expensive, but give us the ability to spam a heal when we need to. I've mained a resto druid since BC - all the way through cata. I mained my resto druid for since the beginning of mists of pandaria; but 8 weeks ago it all changed and I swapped to my holy paladin. My holy paladin in crappier gear, pulls better numbers than my resto druid. Leveling my resto shaman as an alt. My druid is nothing more than an orb farmer now.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/nazgrel/T%C3%A5ll%C3%BCl%C3%A5/simple

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/nazgrel/H%C3%B8lywater/simple

Obviously I haven't progressed very far - but my paladin has progressed more and gets the job done far better than my druid.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
02/23/2013 06:38 PMPosted by Alphadruid
Because numbers that express the experience/performance of hundreds of thousands of players are more valueable than individuals speaking only from personal opinion.

You and a few others that keep linking raidbots, without showing how this implies we're "bad" or "terrible", as you said numerous time, are the only ones that are speaking from a "personal opinion".

I just showed you that when utilized correctly, Garalon-- a fight that people perceive to be the fight we should do best on-- is not actually catering to our toolset as much as people are inclined to believe. Hence why you are seeing Healing Rain, a stacked-only healing ability, doing roughly ~40% of a resto shaman's total healing. That shows to me that, no, this is actually not a fight that is perfect for us.

Linking raidbots does nothing. Going through logs on WoL and deciphering something, putting everything into a perspective and context that makes sense to us, is what will prove something. Unfortunately, it can be quiet hard to without spending a lot of time. But that doesn't mean we fall back on skewed information/data.

02/23/2013 08:10 PMPosted by Alphadruid
The raidbots post was to show how healers overall are doing on Garalon, not what spells they are using to produce those results.

Please explain how this is even relevent? You're saying you are looking at a picture without fully understanding it.

02/23/2013 08:10 PMPosted by Alphadruid
Really this section is of your post is a good example of why raidbots matters. You're posting three parses by the same player in your guild as proof of how things work for the whole player base. Raidbots gives us a much better picture,

Raidbots... No.

You can argue with me on this all you want, but I believe Sensations to be one of the best resto shamans out there. So when I see that his #1 heal is from HR by a long shot, it implies a lot of things. I don't think he's using incorrect spells, I believe he knows everything he can about his spec and class, so I trust that seeing numbers like this is typical for most rshamans that utilize their toolset to the best of their ability, while also "training" their raid to stand in HR.

You are putting too much reliance into Raidbots =\ Maybe I'm just not able to explain this right, so hopefully someone else can. But the data from raidbots is skewed, you can't just look at it and then come to any reasonable conclusion from it.
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100 Worgen Druid
13430
Your views on raidbots are a belief, and not supported by by any evidence. Which is fine, but stop demanding that others should share it.

You and Sensations have never never, not even once, provided any real evidence or explanation on exactly how the data is skewed/biased in a way that makes it invalid...

Making broad statement such as:

02/24/2013 09:39 PMPosted by Fleurs
you can't just look at it and then come to any reasonable conclusion from it.


Is just silly...

When you look at raid-bots, it has reflected class changes quite well, and always has. It displayed early Monk dominance, their nerfs, Disc buffs, and all the while Druids mediocre presence. Historically it has reflected class balance pretty darn accurately, for both for DPS and HPS.

Yet you guys repeatedly try and deny it, and never explain why or give any credible evidence that is based on actual numbers.

Just saying the word "skewed" or "biased" is not enough... Honestly it feels like you only have a colloquial concept of the words, yet pretend to be statisticians. Sensations even attempted to say the data had too small of a sample size, which is so ridiculous, I wonder if he has even taken a basic statistics course. The sample sizes are well beyond what is needed for 99% confidence level, even with a 1% confidence interval.

So while I would never point to Raidbots and claim it is perfect, totally throwing out the data as you would attempt to do, is just dumb.

Proof is in the pudding anyway. For the last 4 months I have been saying druids are 10-30% behind the other classes. Well surprise surprise, we get a 10% buff (and other buffs) and the 30% classes get nerfed through that time (Monks then Disc in 5.2). Looks like Blizzards internal numbers might have reflected raidbots? SHOCKING
Edited by Fangthorn on 2/24/2013 10:36 PM PST
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100 Tauren Shaman
HC
18005
You and Sensations have never never, not even once, provided any real evidence or explanation on exactly how the data is skewed/biased in a way that makes it invalid...


We don't need to, common sense does that for us. As well as the developers and their view on using raidbots as the end-all evidence.
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100 Worgen Druid
13430
At least you admit to having no clue what you are talking about. That's the first step...

As for your sense, it is anything but common.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
Your views on raidbots are a belief, and not supported by by any evidence. Which is fine, but stop demanding that others should share it.

You and Sensations have never never, not even once, provided any real evidence or explanation on exactly how the data is skewed/biased in a way that makes it invalid...

Making broad statement such as:

you can't just look at it and then come to any reasonable conclusion from it.


Is just silly...

When you look at raid-bots, it has reflected class changes quite well, and always has. It displayed early Monk dominance, their nerfs, Disc buffs, and all the while Druids mediocre presence. Historically it has reflected class balance pretty darn accurately, for both for DPS and HPS.

Yet you guys repeatedly try and deny it, and never explain why or give any credible evidence that is based on actual numbers.

Just saying the word "skewed" or "biased" is not enough... Honestly it feels like you only have a colloquial concept of the words, yet pretend to be statisticians. Sensations even attempted to say the data had too small of a sample size, which is so ridiculous, I wonder if he has even taken a basic statistics course. The sample sizes are well beyond what is needed for 99% confidence level, even with a 1% confidence interval.

So while I would never point to Raidbots and claim it is perfect, totally throwing out the data as you would attempt to do, is just dumb.

Proof is in the pudding anyway. For the last 4 months I have been saying druids are 10-30% behind the other classes. Well surprise surprise, we get a 10% buff (and other buffs) and the 30% classes get nerfed through that time (Monks then Disc in 5.2). Looks like Blizzards internal numbers might have reflected raidbots? SHOCKING

So when are you going to get on mumble with me? Lots of the things we "disagree" on will be resolved, I guarantee it.
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100 Tauren Shaman
HC
18005
At least you admit to having no clue what you are talking about. That's the first step...

As for your sense, it is anything but common.


I don't have any clue, yet you're the one who has to link raidbots to support your argument instead of coming to an argument with analyzed logs? Keep talking buddy.
Edited by Sensations on 2/24/2013 10:42 PM PST
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100 Worgen Druid
13430
You think personal logs are more relevant to class balance than a site designed to gather meta data? Are you really that dense?
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