Resto druids, raid design and efficiency:

100 Tauren Shaman
HC
18005
02/24/2013 10:44 PMPosted by Fangthorn
You think personal logs are more relevant to class balance than a site designed to gather meta data? Are you really that dense?


I never said that, but healing isn't dps so you never look at "Raw numbers."

Come on mumble fangthorn, it's boring getting into these arguments over and over, spamming the forums.
Edited by Sensations on 2/24/2013 10:48 PM PST
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
02/24/2013 10:44 PMPosted by Fangthorn
You think personal logs are more relevant to class balance than a site designed to gather meta data? Are you really that dense?

Fangthorn, mumble. Why are you against it? Text can be taken so much differently, you know that.

As for the quoted text, you are basically holding HPS to the same standard of measuring as DPS. You can't do that, and you know why. Just looking at raidbots and seeing x class on top and y class on bottom, doesn't say: HOLY !@#$ THIS CLASS IS SO BAD. THEY NEED TO BE BUFFED. Personally, when I look at raidbots, all I see is absorb classes doing what they do best: absorb and make all other heals do jack%^-*.
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100 Night Elf Druid
19485
02/24/2013 10:49 PMPosted by Fleurs
You think personal logs are more relevant to class balance than a site designed to gather meta data? Are you really that dense?

Fangthorn, mumble. Why are you against it? Text can be taken so much differently, you know that.

As for the quoted text, you are basically holding HPS to the same standard of measuring as DPS. You can't do that, and you know why. Just looking at raidbots and seeing x class on top and y class on bottom, doesn't say: HOLY !@#$ THIS CLASS IS SO BAD. THEY NEED TO BE BUFFED. Personally, when I look at raidbots, all I see is absorb classes doing what they do best: absorb and make all other heals do jack%^-*.


Right, however for those who like big numbers - this is why you see people rerolling. Face it, to a lot of people it IS about the numbers. Blizz needs to realize this and find a way to keep it balanced. I know the pally I heal with loves numbers, and likes to show me how much he beat me up by linking heals (I don't use meters personally-long as nobody died). When I play my Disc priest against him, he doesn't like it and says "Do you really need to do over 100k HPS right now?"

Numbers has an appeal... it's disheartening when I do 50-60k HPS and he's doing over 70k, sometimes more.

Now Druid will always be my favourite healer, but it sucks I just can't compete right now. Took some fun out of the game for me.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
Numbers has an appeal... it's disheartening when I do 50-60k HPS and he's doing over 70k, sometimes more.

Now Druid will always be my favourite healer, but it sucks I just can't compete right now. Took some fun out of the game for me.

The only classes that make it so you can't "compete" are disc priests and to an extent, paladins. But to be fair, every other healer feels the exact same way. We just end up getting sniped a lot harder because of how we work. It doesn't mean we can't compete in the long term, though. Because we do and can when we aren't being sniped.

So that doesn't mean we're in worse shape than others, it means these other classes are just that good, it's not normal. And it also means the fights cater to such classes (fast, quick heals; hence being sniped 24/7) more than it does for us.
Edited by Fleurs on 2/25/2013 10:30 AM PST
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90 Tauren Priest
0
02/28/2013 07:24 AMPosted by Alphadruid
You're never going to find a source of data that isn't "skewed" or imperfect somehow. I don't understand why you're dismissive of a meta source because it is allegedly biased while you also rely on the most skewed source available to us, i.e. individual parses.


Ghostcrawler seems to disagree with you.

"Individual logs are the strongest evidence because we can see what everyone did. Aggregates like RB are the second best."

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status/306937973180608512
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100 Night Elf Druid
6355
02/28/2013 07:24 AMPosted by Alphadruid
It implies we are "bad" because it shows that druids are contributing less than any other healing class.


You didn't put quotes around "contributing less" -- do you really think that a meter accurately measures a healer's contribution? I find that hard to believe coming from a player who seems reasonably intelligent and aware of how healing works.

Meters suck, everyone knows that.

If they had an actual measure of throughput -- such as heals + overheals -- that might be worth something, although you would still have to look at why some of the heals are going to insufficiently damaged players. But naive healing meters are just snipe meters. Shield classes wind up on top, big whoop. That means nothing for the actual success of real groups in real encounters.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650

You and a few others that keep linking raidbots, without showing how this implies we're "bad" or "terrible", as you said numerous time, are the only ones that are speaking from a "personal opinion".


It implies we are "bad" because it shows that druids are contributing less than any other healing class.

You can argue that "bad" in a conversation about class balance should mean something else, but that's where the discussion becomes subjective opinion and pointless.


I just showed you that when utilized correctly, Garalon-- a fight that people perceive to be the fight we should do best on-- is not actually catering to our toolset as much as people are inclined to believe. Hence why you are seeing Healing Rain, a stacked-only healing ability, doing roughly ~40% of a resto shaman's total healing. That shows to me that, no, this is actually not a fight that is perfect for us.


We've been over this. Three parses by one person do not neccesarily represent raiders overall. Lots of guilds don't stack on Garalon.

What was the last fight that had more movement than Garalon? If you define the resto druid niche so narrowly that it rarely appears how is that not a toolkit problem? What is happening in 5.2 that makes you think players will be constantly moving despite the negative impact this would have on DPS class balance?


Linking raidbots does nothing. Going through logs on WoL and deciphering something, putting everything into a perspective and context that makes sense to us, is what will prove something. Unfortunately, it can be quiet hard to without spending a lot of time. But that doesn't mean we fall back on skewed information/data.


How do you conclude that looking at individual parses is not "skewed information/data" from which to make conclusions about all performance of a entire class?


Please explain how this is even relevent? You're saying you are looking at a picture without fully understanding it.


The relevancy is that this demonstrates how druids are actually performing in raids. Hopefully I don't need to explain why actual performance is relevant to a conversation about class balance.


You can argue with me on this all you want, but I believe Sensations to be one of the best resto shamans out there. So when I see that his #1 heal is from HR by a long shot, it implies a lot of things. I don't think he's using incorrect spells, I believe he knows everything he can about his spec and class, so I trust that seeing numbers like this is typical for most rshamans that utilize their toolset to the best of their ability, while also "training" their raid to stand in HR.


If he is one of the best resto shamans out there (and we only have your say so on this) then it follows that his parses should be significantly different from those of an average player.


You are putting too much reliance into Raidbots =\ Maybe I'm just not able to explain this right, so hopefully someone else can. But the data from raidbots is skewed, you can't just look at it and then come to any reasonable conclusion from it.


You're never going to find a source of data that isn't "skewed" or imperfect somehow. I don't understand why you're dismissive of a meta source because it is allegedly biased while you also rely on the most skewed source available to us, i.e. individual parses.

You are just grasping for straws at this point.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650

You are just grasping for straws at this point.


How is explaining why your argument is based on incorrect premises "grasping at straws?"

The burden is on you to explain why what one player in your guild does is a better measure of overall class performance than a meta website analyzing data from that parse and many thousands of others.

Is it so hard for you to understand the concept that maybe we aren't as bad as you think we are, and to do some research for yourself when trying to figure it out?

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-q4x2q5u3z8g7t4vq/details/8/?s=266&e=675
Healing Rain: 32.3%

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-57ju3papdbz0uqta/details/5/?s=1044&e=1385
Healing Rain: 34.4%

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/ie0q0c89wzd5b3sy/details/2/?s=8356&e=8769
Healing Rain: 33.9%

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-cqniba8by7t2q4w4/details/8/?s=26991&e=27413
Healing Rain: 39.7%

I literally just went to the first page of WoL and clicked on random shamans for H Garalon, and lo and behold: HR #1 heal for every one of them. Even if their %'s are different, #1 for each and every one of them.

What does that tell you?
Garalon is really not that spread.

What does that mean?
Rdruids are actually not in their perfect environment to be ideal.

So, what does this indicate?
The fight a majority of people use to measure how well a healer is doing, is actually not balanced for Rdruids in the first place. Thus, making this fight a moot argument.

As for the rest of your nitpicking of my post, I can't be bothered to give you the time of day in a reply. I have given you every answer possible to try and make you even consider that Rdruids aren't in as bad a shape as you believe we are in.
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90 Troll Druid
13720
rdruids in 25 man are so far behind its not even funny. As far as 10 man, I'd say every healing class are around the same rough numbers except for disc priest on some fights...
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90 Troll Druid
13720
As per the changes in 5.2 rdruid will be sitting roughly where mistweavers were pre 5.1 with more utility for 10 man... but will still be terrible in 25 man. They need to fix wild growth, so that in 25 mans, it can hit up to 9 or 10 targets at a time. Then and only then may druids become more viable for medium to hardcore progression 25 man.
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90 Troll Druid
14820
I am going to challenge the idea that garalon is not our fight. In 25 man at least a healer has to be ahead of garalon by a little bit to heal the kiter, while simultaneously healing tanks, the next kiter, themselves and the main group. This healer is in a spot where the move nearly constantly to both avoid the cleave and be in range of everything. Most healers can stand in the middle and for the most part tunnel the main group, but the resto druid gets the mechanics job. We do this job because no one else has nearly the mobility tools we have. It ends up being a far lower hps than our max because we have to often swiftmend a stomp on the kiter because they will take a tick or two of the debuff and we lose lots of efflo numbers from that. But it is much much harder for any other healer to do that job and the ability to effectively deal with mechanics is much more important than numbers imo.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
02/28/2013 03:47 PMPosted by Garrakwild
I am going to challenge the idea that garalon is not our fight. In 25 man at least a healer has to be ahead of garalon by a little bit to heal the kiter, while simultaneously healing tanks, the next kiter, themselves and the main group. This healer is in a spot where the move nearly constantly to both avoid the cleave and be in range of everything. Most healers can stand in the middle and for the most part tunnel the main group, but the resto druid gets the mechanics job. We do this job because no one else has nearly the mobility tools we have. It ends up being a far lower hps than our max because we have to often swiftmend a stomp on the kiter because they will take a tick or two of the debuff and we lose lots of efflo numbers from that. But it is much much harder for any other healer to do that job and the ability to effectively deal with mechanics is much more important than numbers imo.

I think you're moreso agreeing with me than challenging my point.

There's a lot of ways Garalon can be done, so talking about how in certain strats a druid can be more useful than others will really do nothing except cause us to argue in circles. The only thing I can really say is, the point you make of "we do this job because no one else has nearly the mobility tools we have" ends up being a far stretch, because you don't need to be a mobile healer to do this. For the most part, kiters shouldn't even be taking damage to begin with. Maybe every now and then they'll need some attention, but only because of the AoE going out. Any healer can handle this quite easily, if you ask me. Rdruids are not special in this regard.

Either way, I agree with most of what you're saying here, but I don't think it's countering what I posted, really.
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90 Troll Druid
14820
02/28/2013 02:58 PMPosted by Tripcy
They need to fix wild growth, so that in 25 mans, it can hit up to 9 or 10 targets at a time.


That would be broken. WG is spread healing on an instant. I think it would be nice to see efflo bufffed to be awesome for the 3 lowest players and ticks a little for everyone else in the circle. Or conversly efflo unlinked from swiftmend and made a cast time spammable aoe. no more wasting tank healing for aoe needs and no more wasting aoe for tank heals.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650


As for the rest of your nitpicking of my post, I can't be bothered to give you the time of day in a reply. I have given you every answer possible to try and make you even consider that Rdruids aren't in as bad a shape as you believe we are in.


With this attitude I won't bother to reply either.

The burden is on you to explain why looking at individual parses is better evidence than a meta site looking at many thousands of them.

You're really not able to see how going through the details of logs presents more answers than looking at HPS meters?
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