Resto druids, raid design and efficiency:

100 Worgen Druid
12800


Lavarinth proposed a fairly moderate burst heal. Three ticks of each rejuv, the full duration of WG, and any Regrowth HOT "instantly bloomed" on a 60 second cooldown. All restricted to a 10-yard radius.

It would be no more than a fully charged set of mushrooms (even with a full 12 rejuv's and WG out), with a similar radius restriction....

The only "hurr durr" is coming from you and your lack of any real thought or analysis of the suggestions, including the OP which you have "no problem with". Have you even read them?


Do the math and that on each player is comparable to mushrooms? When a suggestion isn't even fully complete and has no thought process, yes I do have a problem. Why don't you also say what you think is wrong with Satans post since you implied it?


Yes, I did the math. Unlike you. Three ticks of ~12k is 36K total per player, at X12 maximum it is 432K. WG would be 122k total at 6 targets and 3043 haste. Most druids glyph regrowth, and their hot is negligible.

That is 554K total, assuming all targets are within 10 yards. Currently I get 220K per mushroom in my current gear on the PTR, for a total of 660K. So his proposal was actually 100k less.

And as for the OP..... you seem to think that a 2 minute CD tranquility with a damage reduction built in, a single planted single "Super Shroom" with a larger radius, or hots creating shields are OK? I know you guys talked on Skype, but could your approval and analysis be any more shallow? I like the ideas being tossed out, props to Satan, but come on.

This is your real point:

So here's food for thought, if Resto Druids had short cd burst heal what would their weakness be? Weakness is a strong word yes, but in a sense every healing class needs one for fair balance.


You have no intention of discussion mechanics or contributing in a positive way. It is comical to think that in every previous thread you complained about references to raidbots and HPS. Now here is a thread almost entirely devoted to mechanics, and here you are once again, basically saying "be quiet, you are fine, working as intended". Not Surprised.
Edited by Fangthorn on 2/18/2013 1:04 AM PST
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Lavarinth proposed a fairly moderate burst heal. Three ticks of each rejuv, the full duration of WG, and any Regrowth HOT "instantly bloomed" on a 60 second cooldown. All restricted to a 10-yard radius.

It would be no more than a fully charged set of mushrooms (even with a full 12 rejuv's and WG out), with a similar radius restriction....

The only "hurr durr" is coming from you and your lack of any real thought or analysis of the suggestions, including the OP which you have "no problem with". Have you even read them?


Do the math and that on each player is comparable to mushrooms? When a suggestion isn't even fully complete and has no thought process, yes I do have a problem. Why don't you also say what you think is wrong with Satans post since you implied it?


The idea of Lavarinth aside, I don't think it matters what people post. Suggestions are suggestions, whether they are good ones or not maybe they give the devs some ideas in one way or another so I don't think disregarding the bad ideas is a good thing to do either.

That aside yes, raid designs change but usually they do not regress but progress in design, if they were to go back to what caters to our play style I don't think anyone would be happy today. Not to mention every healer toolkit is bigger today than it was for Firelands so I guarantee that if we went back to Firelands with the toolkits and changes to healers we have today druids would still get beaten on fights we used to excel on.
Best example for this expansion right now is Garalon, plenty of movement going on as well as constant aoe damage yet it is not rare to see resto shamans, paladins, priests (take the priests with a grain of salt) and monks to beat druids on the meters. Now before you come crying about meters, I know meters are not everything but you get my point I hope.
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100 Tauren Shaman
HC
17975
The idea of Lavarinth aside, I don't think it matters what people post. Suggestions are suggestions, whether they are good ones or not maybe they give the devs some ideas in one way or another so I don't think disregarding the bad ideas is a good thing to do either.


Well this forum is for player to player(With devs usually reading), I was merely giving my opinion on how his suggestion was silly and sure it may be rude to disregard but that doesn't mean the developers will it just means I will. Some things are simply a necessary evil.

That aside yes, raid designs change but usually they do not regress but progress in design, if they were to go back to what caters to our play style I don't think anyone would be happy today. Not to mention every healer toolkit is bigger today than it was for Firelands so I guarantee that if we went back to Firelands with the toolkits and changes to healers we have today druids would still get beaten on fights we used to excel on.


I wouldn't call it regression. The raid model is always changing, this is a completely dynamic game and sure the model may not go back to FL, but who's to say in 2 tiers the model won't change? Previous tiers suggest that it will, I don't see why they would stop changing now. But you may be right on Druids being beaten, especially with Monks in the game but sadly at this point I don't think anyone can say for certain in either direction :p.

Best example for this expansion right now is Garalon, plenty of movement going on as well as constant aoe damage yet it is not rare to see resto shamans, paladins, priests (take the priests with a grain of salt) and monks to beat druids on the meters. Now before you come crying about meters, I know meters are not everything but you get my point I hope.


I get your point, but I can't even say Garalon is a good example overall. When an Rshamans top heal is Healing Rain, then you know an encounter favors stacking heavily and not high movement. I guess a question is, should Rdruids have the highest potential throughput over others healers and if so why?
Edited by Sensations on 2/18/2013 1:21 AM PST
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100 Troll Druid
10320


And as for the OP..... you seem to think that a 2 minute CD tranquility with a damage reduction built in, a single planted single "Super Shroom" with a larger radius, or hots creating shields are OK? I know you guys talked on Skype, but could your approval and analysis be any more shallow? I like the ideas being tossed out, props to Satan, but come on.


Those were different changes that could possible be implemented.
Its not "add everything from this list"...
Its more "add something of this list, then balance it to make it fair, because i cannot give you numbers without having a way to test it multiple times in multiple situations in a controlled environment like you can do as a developer."

So to answer you, yes i think that having a 2 Min Tranquility with maybe 10% to 20% damage reduction inside would make us ok to high-end progression. We would see more druids outside of some very specific fights, and more druids on overall progression in heroics as healers.

Same to 1 mushroom, even if they nerfed the amount healed, like i have said in the post.

About hot creating shields, i would like to please ask you to read it all over again, i suggested then to add an "heal when damaged" a mechanic that is well know to be part of our toolkit, just extended to our Hots. Or a Mechanic that increased people life instead of healing with our Mastery, because those would also create some wipe prevention mechanism to druid toolkit.

Like i said, numbers should be tweaked, they can be changed, if 20% reduction is too much, do 10%, too much? 5%... too little? Back to 10%... and test... maybe nerf the heal, or change to 3min back the CD, or go to 2.5 min... i have no real means to test so its developers job not mine.

Same to all other suggestions, i said this many times, and none of my propositions are overpowered, and all of then appear in some way or another in our toolkit or another healer toolkit.

Want damage reduction and healing CD at same time? Shamans HTT + Spirit Link says Hello.

Want life increase mechanism? Disc Priest and Pally bubble says hello, also shaman single target heals.

Want a skill that was useless and was made more useful by changing QoL? Lightwell...

Like i said, i'm not asking for anything unreasonable.
I'm sorry if you must try to insult my post because you are fighting with Sensations, but i will not accept you to judge me like that and accuse my propositions of being OP when they are modest in fact, and when i took the care to saying that they would need number tweaking MANY TIMES.

So please, lets get back to constructive posts ok?
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100 Troll Druid
10320

I get your point, but I can't even say Garalon is a good example overall. When an Rshamans top heal is Healing Rain, then you know an encounter favors stacking heavily and not high movement. I guess a question is, should Rdruids have the highest potential throughput over others healers and if so why?


Sensations i'd like to answer that one.

I think that HPS is not the problem as i said before. But having a huge HPS is ONE WAY to prevent raid wipes, its not THE WAY, but a possible one.
There is many ways a healer toolkit can contribute to that, with raid wide damage reduction spells, with shields, with fast burst aoe healing, with great single target spot heals, etc...

I fail to see right now what druids brings that is really good at wipe prevention.
In the past it was raid hp stabilization, battle ress, mana regeneration, the most powerful healing CD tranquility, and etc... All of those were rendered useless by other healers toolkit improvements, game mechanic changes, and changes to the druid class.

So for me the problem is druid lost ways to prevent wipes. They tried to give us Ironbark, but a single target CD is not enough right now, and since tranquility heals proportionally less then it did in the past we are worst at this job then we were in the past.

Its not about HPS, meters or Raidbots, just something about what i feel about the druid class, and look and thinking about it, and its role in raids.
Thats why its possible to bring a druid to your raid, he has a solid toolkit, and descent HPS, the problem is that we lost what made us interesting to bring to a raid.

Garalon shows that in my opinion, because it shows that even on the scenario that HoTs are not overhealing by any means, we still fare worse then Paladins.
I'm not even saying Shamans, because like you said their toolkit is great to that fight, but to Paladins that were supposed to have problems dealing with raid wide constant damage. Yet they beat druids HPS.

Its not that this is a problem, you can have a healer with less HPS... the question is, why the druid, that heals over time instead of instant heals, can generate less HPS on a fight like Garalon then a Paladin?
Its ok, we can have that design, if druids had another niche... but they do not right now.

If we had better wipe prevention mechanisms, we would still lose at HPS, but we would contribute to the raid in other ways, so justifying the druid presence in the raid instead of lets say a monk.

Its not also a question of utility, its about the way a healer toolkit will give his raid more room for mistakes, and better way to avoid tries to be wasted and time lost.
Edited by Sàtàn on 2/18/2013 1:33 AM PST
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
02/18/2013 12:55 AMPosted by Fangthorn
You have no intention of discussion mechanics or contributing in a positive way. It is comical to think that in every previous thread you complained about references to raidbots and HPS. Now here is a thread almost entirely devoted to mechanics, and here you are once again, basically saying "be quiet, you are fine, working as intended". Not Surprised.

I mean, even as much as I'd like to be able to handle any kind of situation being thrown at me like a bawssssss... I don't want to be like every other healer. I don't want to have exactly the same tools; otherwise there'd be no diversity. Do you really want to just be another paladin/priest/shaman? There'd be no name for our classes, you can just label us: Healer.

edit: nvm I figured out the first question I had.
Edited by Fleurs on 2/18/2013 1:40 AM PST
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90 Tauren Paladin
11340
I normally try to avoid straight up brainstorming and new spells, but in this thread I think it might be alright. I don't keep track of druid ideas and the like, so perhaps the ideas that came to me while reading this thread aren't anything new, but here goes:

Mushrooms - perhaps a raidwide version of the Green Buff from ultraxion, e.g. all healing done by the raid (save self heals like insight, death strike, etc?) is copied and distributed evenly among the raid.

Overcoming current design:
give the mastery a damage reduction when healing with hots.

Put up a rejuvenation, the more it ticks the higher the damage reduction the target gets.

I fear this might mess with tank damage a bit too much, though.
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Well this forum is for player to player(With devs usually reading), I was merely giving my opinion on how his suggestion was silly and sure it may be rude to disregard but that doesn't mean the developers will it just means I will. Some things are simply a necessary evil.


And that is completely fine but I still think not disregarding any idea is the way to go =) Sure you are entitled to your own opinion but personally instead of simply disregarding the idea I would try to come up with improvements or better ideas to fix the problem (don't get me wrong, I usually don't post on the forums for that very reason, I am not a good thinker and/or theorycrafter, yes I am a hypocrite).

I wouldn't call it regression. The raid model is always changing, this is a completely dynamic game and sure the model may not go back to FL, but who's to say in 2 tiers the model won't change? Previous tiers suggest that it will, I don't see why they would stop changing now. But you may be right on Druids being beaten, especially with Monks in the game but sadly at this point I don't think anyone can say for certain in either direction :p.


I would not really call it regression either, I am German so my vocabulary is pretty limited, I am sorry lol. But I think it is pretty save to assume that we have been heading more towards a mix of everything, single "!@#$ ups" (see shields on spirit kings) can easily cause a raid wipe, burst damage seems to be the way to go but we still get constant aoe dmg from time to time and they certainly are elements of some encounters.

I get your point, but I can't even say Garalon is a good example overall. When an Rshamans top heal is Healing Rain, then you know an encounter favors stacking heavily and not high movement. I guess a question is, should Rdruids have the highest potential throughput over others healers and if so why?


Garalon was really the closest we could get to when druids were OP in firelands as constant AOE dmg was what made us OP. Not gonna lie though while I may not always put out as much healing as our shamans~ boy do I hate healing on my shaman, especially garalon.

As for your question, personally I do not think we need to have the highest potential throughput over other healers but as we are right now we really do not have a niche we fit into imho which results in us being the 5th wheel really. We are doing ok but it is pretty frustrating to know that you are just the end of the stick. This isn't only a throughput issue, moreso a mechanical one. Fix our burst and I'd be more than happy, giving us clunky long ramp up time mushrooms only fixes a small portion of the problem but it is better than nothing.
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100 Night Elf Druid
6295
02/17/2013 06:25 PMPosted by Xiata
His theory is he hates seeing people not topped off, and is too impatient to wait on my heals to tick.


In other words, other healers *don't care that they're wasting mana* by sniping, even though raid AOE spikes have enough cooldown that you actually could wait for the HoTs without putting anyone in any particular danger. And meters encourage this behavior by counting the sniper's heal as regular healing and the victim's as overheal (it's actually the other way around, since someone with a hot already on them that will top them off doesn't really need to be healed any more than a person at full HP does, but an addon isn't smart enough to figure that out).

IMO, Blizzard needs to crack down on mana. Hard. People need to think about using inefficient fast heals or pay for it. That would teach the heal snipers to think about what they're doing -- it's hard to top meters when you ran yourself OOM in the first 30 seconds. Druid output would be fine if players were actually damaged enough to receive it, but the OMG MUST TOP OFF NAO mentality isn't punished enough to stop players from doing it.

Encounter design that assumes players will use the fastest, most inefficient heals possible to top everyone off at all times (and this won't backfire in mana terms) cannot coexist with a HoT-based healer.
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
02/18/2013 10:07 AMPosted by Alphadruid
Resto druids have been bad or terrible for most of the past few years.


That's... just not true.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
02/18/2013 10:07 AMPosted by Alphadruid
Resto druids have been bad or terrible for most of the past few years. New raid mechanics alone are not going to fix this. Major class improvements need to be made.

This is pretty much incorrect.
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100 Troll Druid
10320

Where I disagree with you is the premise that in the future wipe prevention will neccesarrily be best accomplished by single target mitigation spells.

Raiding is a game about numbers. When the boss takes a certain amount of DPS he dies. Tanks and DPS players require a variable amount of healing or they die. Throughput matters to heroic encounter completion. A single target shield spell may save a player from dying to fire but there's definetly still a need to bring numbers to the encounter.


Single traget mitigation? Read again plz...
All my propositions could be used in the entire raid. They are all either based on giving HoTs some kind of way to increase Effective Health, or things that give raid wide damage reduction.

And no... Healing is not a game about numbers only.
If you think so, you have really no idea how this game works.

Do you forget how often healers are benched because guilds thinks they bring "not enough utility"?
This perception is also wrong, but is closer to the truth the your view.

Healing is not something like "Bring X HPS and you can beat the boss, less then this its a wipe".
The difference in necessary HPS vary ALOT by the raid composition, the strategy being used, and the player skill of each player in the raid to avoid damage and use defensives.

That is why high-end guilds reduce number of healers and increase number of DPS's to complete fights most of the time.
If what you said where true, then this would not work. You would cover dps but cause healing issues, and that is just not true.

You are using a mathematical fallacy here, and let me explain it to you:
You are saying that having a large average number is always the best way to deal with variation and randomized values. This is not true, the chance that some random higher average number can deal with some number that has variation and randomization is bigger, but if you look at each possible case you will find many possible ways to reach a large average that is really bad to reach a constant positive number when deducting the other high number with randomization and variation.

Let me explain it in a better way, since damage is not constant, and since we know druids HAVE enough HPS to complete the heroic encounters using 2 healers with low gear, what matters is not how much HPS you can produce but the PATTERN of damage versus the PATTERN of healing you can produce.

The better the pattern of healing adapts to the pattern of damage, and the better you can manipulate the damage pattern by reducing damage, or increasing health pools, (because those change the relative % of damage taken of the raid HP) the more efficient you will really be using that HPS.

You are saying that we fail because we lack actual HPS, when in fact this is not true.
We lack HPS because damage pattern caters well to other healers toolkit and not to ours.

Sure we could just be buffed on throughput, but we would just receive a gimmick buff, and the problem would arise again in the future. And people would scream nerf to us, like they did to Monks.

Try to get away from mathematical and logical fallacies and understand what HPS means, and how the raid receive damage. Try to look at the amount of damage a raid takes and how much a druid can heal, and how much a druid with another healer can do.
Think about what it would be if we could receive some of the tweaks i proposed, do that mental exercise, and now try to think about what it would be with just a lets say 25% increase to all spells. (And that is an INSANE buff that blizzard would never give us.)
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100 Troll Druid
10320
Resto druids have been bad or terrible for most of the past few years. New raid mechanics alone are not going to fix this. Major class improvements need to be made.

This is pretty much incorrect.


Yep... druids are not TERRIBLE...

But i also believe that raid mechanics change is not the answer here, druid play style would require a kind of raid design that will not work with the other healers toolkit anymore, it would have no challenge.

I don't think we need MAJOR class improvements, just some changes to some things to give us some niche, and regain some wipe prevention power that we had in the past, and now we lack.
Edited by Sàtàn on 2/18/2013 12:29 PM PST
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100 Troll Druid
11735
I recall some shamans getting benched for H Rag and druids for H Spine (During progression). That WG nerf hurt. The sad thing was we got nerfed and other classes got buffed just in time for DS. What's funny is the majority of resto druids were the ones calling for it. In hindsight it would have evened out nicely with the other class's buffs.

Back in ICC days the only thing I can recall was having to reach 1 sec GCD and rj spam your !@# off all the time which is what we seem to always revert back to whenever possible.
Edited by Moophious on 2/18/2013 12:35 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
12630
Thanks for the post - good read so far.

I have spent some time on the PTR on a Druid, and I plan to spend more, if only I can get some DPS to queue, instead of hitting the dummies, running ICC, or doing GL dailies. I wish I were kidding.

So far, the Druid, including the new Mushrooms, seem mostly fine, with one exception - I didn't feel that I had that *go to* spell, like I do on the rest of the healers.

Reading through this thread, I was reminded of the Clemency talent that Paladins have, and was thinking that maybe something similar for the Druid would be the answer.

Clemency allows a paladin to use their Hands up to 2 times in a row before it invokes the CD. I was thinking of something similar for the Druid using Wild Growth, with perhaps 3-4 charges, instead of 2. Full mana cost for each WG, on a 1 minute cycling CD, similar to the Monk's Roll/Chi Torpedo.

This way, the Druid has more burst, and how it's used is completely in the Druid's hands, without really changing the dynamic of the class too much.

Thoughts?

Riôt
Edited by Riôt on 2/18/2013 1:25 PM PST
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