Resto druids, raid design and efficiency:

85 Night Elf Druid
0
02/20/2013 06:34 AMPosted by Alphadruid
Druids are in last place in three of the four measurements.


Sure, but in all but one of those measurements the difference between druids and the next class up is less than 3%.

02/20/2013 06:34 AMPosted by Alphadruid
Priests, paladins, and monks are way above druids in every area of measurement.


Druids are within 3% of Monks in 10H top 100, and within 10% in 10H all parses. And it's worth noting that Shaman don't compete with Priests, Paladins, or Monks in any category, Monks only compete with Paladins in 25s, and nothing competes with Priests in any category.

I agree druids are in need of some fixes, but I can't in good conscience say they're in "very bad shape" given that they're consistently within 15% of Paladins (I'm considering Disc an outlier), and that Shamans are in similar shape.
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
02/20/2013 06:34 AMPosted by Alphadruid
http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/10H/all/14/60/default/#1111111101111111111111100000111111

Let's stop using raidbots as a way to signify druid issues.

02/20/2013 06:34 AMPosted by Alphadruid
But these are the best metrics available to us for measuring class performance and they're produced by looking at a very large sample.

I'd argue that, and this is why you frustrate me/Sensations.

Stop spreading around these fallacious comments that are backed up from skewed data that doesn't say anything other than disc priests are awesome right now.
Edited by Fleurs on 2/20/2013 9:48 AM PST
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90 Orc Shaman
HC
16485
If you have some objective information you would like to introduce into the discussion go ahead. But otherwise we're left with another discussion where you or sensations explain why you are right and all the available information is wrong.


We don't say all available information is wrong. The way you use raidbots is wrong. Do you know why I haven't argued against Satan in this thread? Because I don't see him caring about pure hps, I see him giving his suggestions based on his knowledge/experience of a class not what some website tells him, it doesn't matter how wrong I may think he is on certain things, I simply won't argue with that because it's his experience.
Edited by Sensations on 2/20/2013 12:50 PM PST
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90 Troll Druid
18085
Besides, more than a quarter of encounters this tier have skewed numbers anyway because of phasing/combatlog range issues.
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
02/20/2013 11:34 AMPosted by Alphadruid
The extent to which a class is losing the competition for last place is only a useful measure if there isn't a substantial gap between the first and last place classes.


Uhm... why?

02/20/2013 11:34 AMPosted by Alphadruid
As previously stated I don't view a discussion of what constitutes "fine" or some other word as useful when looking at class balance.


You have to define the problem at some point.
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
02/20/2013 04:26 PMPosted by Alphadruid
Isn't it obvious? Because if you only balance the two worst classes against each other you'll get two classes that are equally bad compared to all the others.


Something's obvious, but it isn't what you're saying.

The discrepancy between the bottom two classes is useful for one thing, and one thing only: giving the state of the bottom class(es) some measure of perspective. Like I said, you have to define the problem at some point, and the discrepancy between the bottom class and the classes immediately above it affects how you deal with the problem.

02/20/2013 04:26 PMPosted by Alphadruid
As past discussions have shown, people take these words and assign an arbitrary meaning to them.


Which is exactly why I called you out on it in the first place : /

Arbitrary meanings !@#$ discussions up.
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90 Troll Druid
9345
Seriously, Alphadruid, stop trying to enforce HPS as the most important thing for a healer.

You need to remember that there is many factors of why druids HPS is lower in Raidbots:

1- Player's tend to go for classes that are FoTM, excellent players, or the ones that really cares about positions on WOL will cause minor gaps seems greater because of rerolls.
This happens with DPS's all the time, blizzard tries to explain it every time, showing how actual dps's are much near then people try to imply by raid bots, but most keep not listening to them.


2- Paladins and Disc Priests get all the very small damage that are meaningless threat to the raid to them because of shields.
Do you really believe that they contributed more because they healed that 2k damage to the raid? Or that small damage that took someone just 10% of their HP?
No they did not, they just have tools that shows as more efficient them they really are on HPS meters.
Don't want to believe? Just try removing all heals that healed under 10k damage, and shields that absorbed under that value also, and see for yourself.
This happened before with druids, and people screamed nerf to us exactly because they were looking at Recount instead of thinking that a big part of that HPS was useless sniping of very minor damages.

3- Druids are the worse healers right now, that is obvious, and anyone that said contrary is crazy. We are not BAD, we just are the last one right now, we can do the encounters and our toolkit is descent, we just need some QoL issues resolved and some changes to make druid playstyle working better with current game design.
Proof that druids are worse? No other healer are receiving a 10% flat bonus to all heals.
That is a simple and easy way to show how blizzard agrees that we are underpowered.

4- There is a big problem of... who uploads logs?
Its really everyone? No...
Can that have any tendency that interferes with how HPS will show? Yes...
Without any proof that shows that there is no tendencies of players that upload logs to be of certain classes, there is no way to validate its values.

Ex: We could suppose that people that upload logs are mostly:
A- Raid Leaders
B- Top DPS's
C- Top Healers

Raid leaders to use it as a tool, and top DPS'ss and healers because:
1- Top Healers and DPS's tend to be the players that do more research, so they are the ones that tend to use tools to check their rotation, and uptimes, and compare to others.

2- Those some persons are the ones that tend to be proud about their work in the raid, and by uploading logs they can achieve rankings, since those people usually are top dps or top heals because they care about such a thing, they will also care about being top on WoL thus increasing the likehood a top dps or top heal will post his log.

Based on this assumptions, we could see a tendency of the best healers, to show their logs more, but this logs will include their entire guild, causing no class number discrepancy.
This would cause a tendency of more balanced cores, where healers have a less huge discrepancy between each other, to post less on WoL, then the ones where 1 healer is clearly at the top.

I'd also like to remember you that the best 1 healer is, and the worse the others of his raid are, the more likely he will be to make a really good spot on WoL rankings.

So classes that are having a minor advantage will end up having more WoL updates with they on top, then classes that are a little inferior, thus tipping this already balancing point even worse then it actually is.

See? I'm not saying that this is exactly how its happening, but i'm just proving that this data means NOTHING if you do no real research about it.
Its something basic when doing any scientific research that you need to prove that your data is relevant, knowing the tendencies that alter the real facts you are researching about.

WoL is a descent tool, as also is Raid bots, it shows us clearly what are the top classes right now, but it cannot show us for how much those classes are really better.
It might be only 1%, or it might by 20% we will never be sure with only Raid Bots and WoL.

So please, stop trying to say this data is a mirror of reality, its great data, but you did 0 actual research, and 0 scientific work to justify your use of such Data in any meaningful way.
Edited by Sàtàn on 2/21/2013 2:57 AM PST
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90 Worgen Druid
11960
Seriously, Alphadruid, stop trying to enforce HPS as the most important thing for a healer.

...........

Druids are the worse healers right now, that is obvious, and anyone that said contrary is crazy. We are not BAD, we just are the last one right now.

WoL is a descent tool, as also is Raid bots, it shows us clearly what are the top classes right now.....


Satan, these statements just make your post feel rambling and pointless.

I do not think anyone, including Alphadruid, has said anything much different than you just did, only with less hypocrisy.
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90 Worgen Druid
11960
Anyway, this is just silly.

Blizzard obviously agreed that Druids were lagging badly, and gave a flat 10% buff, and significant buff to our burst healing tool.

Lets move on, in the context of 5.2 and the already implemented changes to druids and other classes, this 5.1 raidbots discussion is now irrelevant.

It is impossible to make any meaningful discussion with raidbots until we see how it all fits together in 5.2
Edited by Fangthorn on 2/21/2013 7:59 AM PST
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
"I'm going to insult you then drop the topic so I have last word" -Fangthorn

Does this sound anything like what Satan has been saying?

02/18/2013 10:07 AMPosted by Alphadruid
Resto druids have been bad or terrible for most of the past few years. New raid mechanics alone are not going to fix this. Major class improvements need to be made.


02/21/2013 02:55 AMPosted by Sàtàn
we just need some QoL issues resolved and some changes to make druid playstyle working better with current game design.

I'd say that's almost the exact opposite.

They do both agree there need to be changes to the class-- albeit not how much-- but one is saying the current game design (as in damage pattern and overall boss mechanics) is a huge factor. The other says it won't make a difference having those changes.

I have to agree with Satan, having different damage patterns may make a big difference in how everyone views rdruids. However, it's a really hard position GC is in. We're basically the only class that revolves around heals over time (maybe monks too? they just have more burst from what I understand), and no way to do anything else and become a more versatile healer. We just basically rely on one spell: Rejuv.
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90 Tauren Druid
8275
Not sure if this has ever been brought up but how about a new spell with a 1 min cd. When you cast this spell all of your hots instantly heal for their max amount but also be stripped from the target (ignoring lb). This would then help us when the raid takes a massive spike and we are stuck trying to figure out what to do.

Another option would also be to have a raid wide Swiftmend, usable on all hots that doesn't proc efflo. Again on a minute CD so it isn't abused.
Edited by Cowpuss on 2/21/2013 2:37 PM PST
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90 Tauren Druid
15675
The thing that a lot of people are overlooking is that the overall perception of how well a particular class is doing is both an objective and subjective quality.

It's entirely possible for druids to be doing 95% of the healing of other classes, and feel completely powerless and miserable about the experience.

The challenge that Blizzard ultimately faces is improving the druid's play experience, which requires that druids have the tools to be as productive as other classes, and feel like their decisions are meaningful, without trivializing game-play for druids or the other classes druids play with.

There are a couple characteristics of the druid's design that have made them particularly challenging to balance over the years: the healing style is slow to ramp up to peak throughput, is dominated by managing cooldowns more-so than managing mana or triage-ing targets, and is limited to dealing with emergency conditions with relatively minor variations in healing throughput.

These characteristics make it difficult to provide a reactive feedback mechanism that lets restoration druids promptly feel the benefits or consequences of their actions, because they're constrained by the same basic casting cycles and same delays for health to return over time regardless of how critical the need is.

For example, in times of extreme AoE damage, a restoration druid will tend to keep Rejuvenation rolling across as many targets as possible while keeping Swiftmend and Wild Growth on cooldown, and in doing so can generate extremely favorable healing throughput numbers.

But the casting sequence being done is almost identical to how a restoration druid handles light AoE damage, or spot healing random single-target damage across a raid, and the per-target healing being done is really not terribly large.

The result is that it's easy for a restoration druid to feel badly constrained in their ability to react to that extreme AoE damage, even as they function at their most efficient levels, and leap ahead of other healing classes on the strength of enviable sustainable parallel healing abilities.

What druids probably really need is fewer cooldowns that give long, predominately passive healing throughput increases, like Nature's Vigil, Force of Nature, and even the current Incarnation, and more fast-cycle cooldowns like Swiftmend that let druids manipulate casting times and global cooldowns in exchange for accelerated mana use, allowing druids to optionally condense more actions into fewer button clicks, and pay an appropriate penalty for doing so.

Examples along this line could include cooldowns to simultaneously apply HoTs to a group of targets (remember how many NPC druids we've fought over the years that can do mass-moonfires, mass-rejuvenations, and mass-entangles?), cooldowns to amplify HoT output over short intervals (via burst of haste, outright magnitude boosts, or perhaps even allowing repeat stacks of the same HoT on a given target), and/or cooldowns to reset other cooldowns, allowing occasional fast-cycle applications of Swiftmend or Wild Growth.

Unfortunately, a lot of the cooldown tools available to restoration druids now are talents designed to prevent overpowered levels of burst damage output from moonkin and feral druids, which ends up leaving restoration druids with mediocre tools for their needs.
Edited by Urnirus on 2/21/2013 3:54 PM PST
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90 Troll Druid
HC
12650
02/21/2013 02:27 PMPosted by Alphadruid
Even back in ICC druids were sat for the heroic lich king encounter.

Doesn't prove anything about the class other than mechanics to the fight catered to other classes better.

The only time I will agree that druids were "bad" was in t11. We were just not being brought at all, no matter raid size, comp, or level of progression. T13... We weren't bad there. You use the term too easily, still. Every class at some point has their issues. Just because we're on the bottom of the healing charts sometimes doesn't mean we're bad. We can't be first all the time.

If the problem with druids was just raid mechanics we'd expect druids to do perform well on an encounter that fits into our niche. But parses show druids still competing with shamans for second to last place. Monks, paladins, and priests (of both specs!) all perform significantly better than druids.

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Garalon/10H/all/14/60/default/#1111111101111111111011100000111111

You keep falling back on linking raidbots... I'm still unsure why you keep using this means as a way to measure class balance.

I still believe this fight doesn't have nearly as much movement as we'd like for it to show an rdruids true colors. If you look at the parsing resto shamans, almost ~40% of their total healing is done by healing rain: a spell that requires people to be stacked. That means there's really not much movement even happening.

For example:
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-vdtqb8a0759mp74q/details/1/?s=6172&e=6534
Healing Rain: 37.8% of total healing done

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-w6jwbc9p65s9r9u8/details/0/?s=6959&e=7334
Healing Rain: 36.7% of total healing done

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-ynhyj8o5c1bppc6r/details/2/?s=7864&e=8281
Healing Rain: 35.9% of total healing done

Just trying to point out that this fight really isn't all that spread out, not like people seem to believe. And if people are spread out for some reason, it's because you're not maximizing your healers =\ Since it's fairly obvious you can easily brew up a strat where the entire raid is in one place (minus kiter + tanks)

@Urn

I love your entire post. Also love the suggestions and well-put explanation of our current state.
Edited by Fleurs on 2/21/2013 4:08 PM PST
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
02/23/2013 06:38 PMPosted by Alphadruid
Really this section is of your post is a good example of why raidbots matters. You're posting three parses by the same player in your guild as proof of how things work for the whole player base. Raidbots gives us a much better picture,


Yes, because Raidbots does spell breakdowns.
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