Y'Shaarj, Garrosh, and the Horde rebellion

100 Dwarf Paladin
13295
While some of the pieces for the Siege of Orgrimmar are starting to fall into place, there still remains two questions that need to be answered. The first is what will actually push the other Horde leaders over the edge to the point of starting a full-scale rebellion. The second is why will the Alliance intercede directly when at least on the surface it might make more sense to simply sit on the sidelines and then sweep in after the fact and ensure the Horde can never threaten the Alliance again (or if they are feeling magnanimous, strongarm the Horde into lopsided peace treaty).

For the first question it is true that there are a lot of Horde members who already have a bone to pick with Garrosh, but I think we'll still need that last push to make them say enough is enough, Garrosh has to go right now.

For the second question, the potential of the faction leaders being aware of an imminent Burning Legion invasion has been brought up by many people, myself included, but perhaps it might be best if there was a more upfront and current reason for the Alliance to make defeating Garrosh such an extremely high and urgent priority.

I believe the best answer to both questions might be the same one, Y'Shaarj, or more accurately the power of Y'Shaarj.

***SPOILERS FROM PATCH 5.2***

Ra-den's ending dialogue indicates that there is something unfathomably evil below Pandaria.
I believe that thing it is the remains of Y'Shaarj. While I feel no reason to doubt Blizzard when they say the Old God in question is very dead, the existence of the Sha indicates that dead and irrelevant are two very different things.

Garrosh has already shown an interest in sha energy, what would happen if he realized he could tap it straight from the source? What if in say, the events of 5.3 we uncover the remains of Y'Shaarj and Garrosh manages to get his hands on them (or maybe something a bit more portable like the heart of Y'Shaarj) and brings them back to Orgrimmar.

Drawling power directly from an Old God has to be on the list of things that cannot possibly end well, which could easily be what prompts the other Horde leaders to start a full-scale uprising. Likewise it could also send the Alliance into a race against the clock to kill Garrosh before he works out how to unleash Y'Shaarj's full power. Perhaps him unlocking some of Y'Shaarj's power could help power him up to be a worthy expansion final boss.
Edited by Falrinn on 2/18/2013 2:48 PM PST
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90 Human Warrior
13525
It would make sense. I mean Hellscream would do it if it meant to empower his Horde. He believes only the strong are in the Horde and not for the weak.
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63 Draenei Paladin
1680
Better yet teleport the whole Brain-Dead corpse to Ragefire Chasms(Arakkoa were about to summon a whole Old God to Outland until their ritual was stopped by players) in order to weild it and Flesh-Shape it to usefulness the Spirit-Bind his own soul to this brand new vessal!
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100 Dwarf Paladin
13295
02/18/2013 02:58 PMPosted by Archpaladin
Better yet teleport the whole Brain-Dead corpse to Ragefire Chasms(Arakkoa were about to summon a whole Old God to Outland until their ritual was stopped by players) in order to weild it and Flesh-Shape it to usefulness the Spirit-Bind his own soul to this brand new vessal!


I do find the idea of Garrosh attempting to transform himself into an Old God (either through your spirit binding idea or by using Y'Shaarj's essence to generate himself a completely new Old God vessel) very appealing. The only reason I didn't include it in the OP was to keep it a bit more general and a bit of a quicker read.

On a related note, perhaps due to his exposure to Y'Shaarj's power, it's Garrosh who first realizes that the Legion is on their way right now. He'll say something to that effect during the encounter, which is what directly leads to the Alliance and Horde declaring a truce after the events of the Siege of Orgrimmar.
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The odd thing about old gods is that even when their bodies are dead, it is very much possible for them to still influence people and to resurrect them.

Cho'gall hung Med'an from C'thun's body to try to resurrect him, and it also allowed C'thun to whisper to Med'an dark maddening sweet nothings.
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63 Draenei Paladin
1680
Either Cthun was a conduit for Deathwing's Voice(he did whisper to Sinestra you know) or Cthun left a shadow which ended up possessing Cho'gall.
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100 Dwarf Warrior
17485
C'Thun didn't possess Cho'gall; he just empowered him.
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63 Draenei Paladin
1680
So the C'thun's Shadow still plagues Silithus and we don't know what it looks like unlike Y'shaarj's Shadows AKA the Sha.

Considering that Cho'gall was trying to ressurect him C'thun is dead yet may have a ghost.
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100 Tauren Druid
8330
C'thun isn't dead in the conventional sense.
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
10860
Given Garrosh's particular views on corruption and using corrupting items to gain power I really can't see him making use of actual Old God body parts directly.

The Sha, while they are part Old God, are mostly negative emotions from mortals like us. That's why the Sha of Doubt exploded the Jade Forest. In Garrosh's twisted code of honor that makes the Sha an acceptable form on power.

What I see happening is that the Rebellion will exist because of Garrosh's racist treatment of other Horde races. At some point, possibly the end of 5.2 but definitely some time in 5.3, the Alliance will become aware of the Rebellion and react.

Falrinn did mention wondering why the Alliance is going to get involved in what is essentially a Horde civil war. Basically, it is a golden opportunity for the Alliance. Let's assume that ~50% of the current Horde's military strength goes Rebel. That means, again assuming equal force distribution against each opponent, that Garrosh's Horde is reduced to 25% of military strength the Alliance is currently facing. 50% goes to the Rebel, 25% is devoted to fighting the Rebels thus leaving only 25% to fight the Alliance.

In this scenario the nightmare result for the Alliance is that one side of the Horde Civil War wins a cheap, quick and decisive victory. That would result in the Horde reforming at roughly the same military strength as it currently has. By joining the fight the Alliance can ENSURE that one faction is destroyed properly, resulting in the united Horde that emerges from the Civil War being AT MOST 50% of the Alliance current military strength.
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100 Dwarf Paladin
13295
Given Garrosh's particular views on corruption and using corrupting items to gain power I really can't see him making use of actual Old God body parts directly.

The Sha, while they are part Old God, are mostly negative emotions from mortals like us. That's why the Sha of Doubt exploded the Jade Forest. In Garrosh's twisted code of honor that makes the Sha an acceptable form on power.


If we were still in Cataclysm, I would be inclined to agree. But Tides of War and then the subsequent events in MoP has shown that Garrosh has reached the point that anything that helps the Horde attain victory is worth pursuing.

He might still have a special distrust of demonic magic, but I believe nowadays he would be arrogant enough to believe that he could seize the powers of the Old Gods for himself if an opportunity presented itself. And while he would never serve an Old God, Y'Shaarj is much too dead to be giving orders.

Falrinn did mention wondering why the Alliance is going to get involved in what is essentially a Horde civil war. Basically, it is a golden opportunity for the Alliance. Let's assume that ~50% of the current Horde's military strength goes Rebel. That means, again assuming equal force distribution against each opponent, that Garrosh's Horde is reduced to 25% of military strength the Alliance is currently facing. 50% goes to the Rebel, 25% is devoted to fighting the Rebels thus leaving only 25% to fight the Alliance.

In this scenario the nightmare result for the Alliance is that one side of the Horde Civil War wins a cheap, quick and decisive victory. That would result in the Horde reforming at roughly the same military strength as it currently has. By joining the fight the Alliance can ENSURE that one faction is destroyed properly, resulting in the united Horde that emerges from the Civil War being AT MOST 50% of the Alliance current military strength.


The way I see it, if the "nightmare result" as you put it, brings the Alliance back to square one, it's not much of a nightmare. And the only way that could happen would be if one faction manages to absorb the entire military strength of the other, which is incredibly unlikely.

That's why I think there needs to be an extra push to intervene. They need to realize that if Garrosh wins he could be a far more dangerous threat then he was at the beginning of the conflict. Him seizing the power of Y'Shaarj for himself just might fit the bill.
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
10860
The way I see it, if the "nightmare result" as you put it, brings the Alliance back to square one, it's not much of a nightmare. And the only way that could happen would be if one faction manages to absorb the entire military strength of the other, which is incredibly unlikely.

That's why I think there needs to be an extra push to intervene. They need to realize that if Garrosh wins he could be a far more dangerous threat then he was at the beginning of the conflict. Him seizing the power of Y'Shaarj for himself just might fit the bill.


Unlikely, but consider this. The Alliance choses to sit out the Horde Civil War. Under the scenario I described the "nightmare result" is really the Rebels gaining a quick, cheap and total victory. I think we both agree that if Garrosh were to win he would execute the Rebels for daring to rebel.

So that leaves us with (assuming) Vol'jin as Warchief. He is hardly hostile to the Alliance and has even worked with the Alliance in the past. He is respected and trusted by both sides. This presents a unique opportunity to end the war between the Horde and the Alliance diplomatically. The Alliance is at war with both eventual Horde factions and that won't change just because of a civil war in the Horde.

Now, since the Alliance sat out, they took no further casualties and were able to shore up defences. But the Rebels, for whatever reason, didn't take that many casualties and were able to spare a large portion of Garrosh's Horde as well. This means that, if the war were to continue, either side could win. Vol'jin could extract a number of concessions in trade rights and land because of this.

If, on the other hand, the Alliance intervenes and destroys as much of Garrosh's Horde as they can then the Horde is reduced to half the strength of the Alliance. Under these conditions the Horde would be in position to demand very little and may even have to give up a fair bit because it is likely the Horde would lose everything if the war were to continue.
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100 Troll Shaman
5635
That's why I think there needs to be an extra push to intervene. They need to realize that if Garrosh wins he could be a far more dangerous threat then he was at the beginning of the conflict. Him seizing the power of Y'Shaarj for himself just might fit the bill.

I think you already know by now that I agree, but I'll elaborate on this idea nonetheless.

The Siege of Orgrimmar, both in its lead-up and its aftermath, has a number of story and metagame difficulties to consider. While the Horde leaders and races already have their reasons to move against Garrosh, there's still the need for some kind of trigger to signal the official start of the rebellion. We can't (or at the very least shouldn't) just get to 5.x and all of a sudden the rebellion is fully formed and outside the gates.

Alliance-side, they've already got every reason to batter down the gates of Orgrimmar, but their reasoning for their presence in the raid, and their subsequent departure from Orgrimmar (which is all but guaranteed by the metagame) needs to be made explicit. The Alliance shouldn't just up and leave without explanation once Garrosh is dead.

Now, the best way to do this is to show Alliance leaders (by which I most likely mean Varian) that sitting back and doing nothing, or else moving in and mopping up after the internal conflict has resolved, is not a desirable course of action.

This could (and in my opinion should) be done by portraying Garrosh's faction as a significant threat to the Alliance which they could not or would not want to fight on their own (which he'll need to be to considering he's supposed to hold the position of end of expansion raid boss). The Horde rebels would then present the opportunity of both assistance in removing Garrosh and ensuring that the new regime would satisfy the Alliance's desire for peace.

Garrosh has already taken control of a number of things, from Gronn, to Molten Earth elementals, to Kraken, but if he can obtain some power which shifts the balance in his favour, the Alliance would have a reason to work with the Horde rebels. Couple that with the looming threat of demonic invasion, and the prospect of a more cooperative Horde leadership might encourage pursuing a peaceful resolution (or at the very least, putting a moratorium on the Alliance/Horde conflict while the Burning Legion is kicking around in Azeroth).
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