MW in PvP

90 Human Monk
7160
*Before reading this, one must understand that this is in no way a plea for homogenization-- but rather a fix to Monks to fit the 'Healing Framework' Blizzard implied this expansion: Triage healing, Mitigation aspects, Healing CDs, Spammable free heals*

MW heals in Pvp (bgs, rbgs, arenas) are exceptionally bad.
We are the new Cata Resto Druid, but with slower HoTs and a more constrictive healing toolkit.

MW monks must rely on ranged healing in the PvP setting due to fistweaving being completely unreliable, and quite frankly not enough healing. The buffs to Fistweaving in 5.2 is great for PvE, but a detriment to MW in PvP. We barely stand a chance now, and wont at all in 5.2-- even with ring of peace.

We are excellent in the mobility field, but our problem lies within out healing toolkit.

-- We, like Resto Druids, lack reliable-burst AoE healing. Our only bust AoE healing is RM->Uplift. This is unreliable because 1] the RM CD, 2] the amount RM jumps, 3] baseline duration of RM. True, these are all in effect to balance RM. If only blizzard could fix it so that it worked as it intended: by jumping to the lowest health party member rather and did not bounce to members already affected by a RM HoT.

--Because Fistweaving is not reliable at all (kited by ranged, defeats the purpose of running away from melee), we must rely on ranged healing/soothing mist to maximize our healing. Why is this a problem? RNG Chi generation. Because we are RNG dependent, we are pigeon holed into picking 2 specific lvl 45 talents: Chi Brew & Power Strike to decrease the RNG aspect of Chi for our "oh !@#$" moments. Solution: 1] Making either Chi Brew or Power Strike baseline and not a talent choice. 2] reduce the RNG of Soothing Mist by increasing the chance of Chi generation, or increase soothing Mist healing and the time between channeled ticks. (Blizzard did address this by removing Chi cost of LvL 30 talents, giving us more room to use them on other efficient spells).

-- Our only spells to get an allies health gave up quickly is Surging Mist, Enveloping Mist, Healing Spheres. First, Surging Mists' healing:mana cost ratio is absurd. For it to heal 56k for 26.5k mana (and i believe its healing is going to be nerfed, correct me if im wrong) is high. On top of that, we get 1 Chi. 1 Chi for 26.5k mana, and none of our spells require less than 2 Chi. For Surging Mist to be an emergency, spammable heal, I wish it would give more than 1 Chi per cast.

- Enveloping mist is a HoT that heals for a big chunk of one's health. However, the problem is its duration. It takes far too long for it to heal someone its full intended heal before they die. Its a problem when that said person is being hit harder and faster by an enemy compared to your slow-larger heal. Because Enemies DPS & Damage is higher than our Healing (and due to the 25% debuff in PvP), we are forced to couple Enveloping mist with Life Cocoon. Only solution I see happening is this: Enveloping Mist heals over a 3 duration (down from 6.24 sec) & increase Chi regeneration of Soothing Mist from 35% -> 50% for Yseconds (effectively removing the 30% increased healing from Soothing Mist). With these changes, Enveloping Mist would go from healing ~28k per second in 6.24 seconds to ~59K per second in 3 seconds. This will be more manageable to deal with the crazy burst damage in PvP whilst decreasing the RNG factor.
Edited by Cubchoo on 2/18/2013 8:28 AM PST
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90 Human Monk
7160
--Our only reliable damage mitigation is Life Cocoon, which is usually consumed during heavy damage instances coupled with Enveloping Mist. Once its used, were screwed. To be viable in PvP, a healer must have some way to either mitigate damage to to heal quickly. Paladins have Instant cast-free heals via Holy Power & damage mitigation through talents and Mastery; Priest have PW:S, Spirit Shell, PW:B, Divine Aegis, Pain Supression, and Discipline Mastery; Shamans have Earth Shield, Ancestral Awakening, Spirit Link Totem, Mastery; Druids have Ironbark (not much either, I admit). Blizzard addressed this by giving Monks Ring of Peace, however we still need some way of mitigating damage (such as a passive) that makes our healing worthwhile. Solution: give our Serpent Statue a new ability similar to Statue of the Ox, in which we must healing a certain amount of health and our Statue will place Guard (or something similar) on the lowest healthed ally. Solution: Reduces Life Cocoons CD, or grant a passive that reduces the CD by X seconds when your heals crit.

--We are the only healer without a Healing CD to buff our healing considerably (Paladins have wings and other CDs to increase healing, Priest have talents (power infusion, wings) and Hymns, Druid has Tree of Life and LvL 90 Talents, Shamans have Ascendance. MW Monks, nothing. Nothing that substantially increases our healing for a specified duration. One could argue that Xuen is a healing CD. However, Xuen does not increase the healing of my standard Triage Spells, does not increase the healing of my Chi Healing Spells; Xuen does damage, which only heals if a Serpent Statue is active-- what I like to call Implied Healing.

I understand Blizzards stance that MW monks are a completely new style of healing. While I agree that they are fun, I find the path Blizzard is leading us in (via nerfs and buffs) will not work in the PvP setting, nor will a healer ever work effectively in this game that is balanced around the assumption of a "Healing Framework" that I've suggested.

Other Suggestions to bring uniqueness to the Healing Spec:
--Emerald Dream, 3min CD: causes your monk to envelope itself into the Mist, unable to be attacked, stunned, interrupted or killed for 5 seconds. Removes the Chi cost and CD of spells for the duration.

--25% of your over heals encase your ally in a healing sphere , once the ally takes damage and goes below 100% health, the healing sphere burst and heals the target for the amount.

--Using Renewing Mist on your Serpent Statue will spread Renewing Mist to all targets in a 40yard radius of the Serpent Statue for 25% of the regular duration and heals for 25% of the regular amount. Grants 0 Chi. Doubles Renewing Mist CD. ( 25% of regular duration is ~4seconds, making it possible to use ~2 Uplifts if timed correctly. This may cause problems with Thunder Focus Tea.)

-- Xuen LvL 90 Talent (MW only): Instead of a White Tiger, summons a Red Crane (or other animal) for 45 Seconds. Red Crane acts as a second Serpent Statue and its function (Eminence, Soothing Mist). Red Crane also replicates your heals for X% of its amounts and durations, however, will stop DPS'ing if replicating your heal.
Edited by Cubchoo on 2/18/2013 8:31 AM PST
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80 Human Priest
3225
You should clarify what form of pvp you are talking about. It seems to be RBGs? The reason I asked is because your list does not high-light the problems we have in arena. It also doesn't accurate detail what is fundamentally wrong with our entire ranged healing tool set in pvp.
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90 Human Monk
7160
I'm assuming you mean that we need to instant cast our heals to be viable, thus we must rely on channeling soothing mist, therefore making us targets of interrupts and silences.
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90 Human Monk
7160
aka, no protection against interrupts when our whole ranged healing is modeled around soothing mist.
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90 Undead Monk
11230
We are terrible in arena, I will give you that. We are already too good in rbgs and only get better next patch.
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80 Human Priest
3225
02/18/2013 09:33 AMPosted by Cubchoo
I'm assuming you mean that we need to instant cast our heals to be viable, thus we must rely on channeling soothing mist, therefore making us targets of interrupts and silences.


Not exactly...

Soothing Mist
Renewing Mist
Enveloping Mist

Can all be dispelled. Surging Mist cost WAY to much mana, and Enveloping requires Soothing Mist to be channeled for six seconds in order for it to be on par with other healers greater heal.

Healing Sphere has become a one size fits all situation in arena because it makes up for the fact that our ranged healing tool mechanics are horrible. As we scale with gear, healing spheres are not balanced because they negate the entire need for casting. The problem is our other heals make casting to difficult, and are to vulnerable to dispel to be worth using 99% of the time in arena.

From my perspective the only way this will ever be fixed is that Soothing Mist needs a redesign...

Soothing Mist
3sec cast time (increase the healing by 100% per tick and double the mana cost)
3 ticks
When you cast Soothing Mist you generate 1 chi every time you heal the target.
When your soothing mist is completed you gain "Forceful healing"
Forceful Healing: Makes you next two cast of surging mist are instant cast
8sec cooldown

Make Enveloping Mist instant cast baseline.

We must have non-RNG chi generation at ranged or we are going to be tied to healing spheres forever.
Edited by Primiez on 2/18/2013 12:32 PM PST
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15 Human Mage
0
02/18/2013 08:25 AMPosted by Cubchoo
MW heals in Pvp (bgs, rbgs, arenas) are exceptionally bad.


You're doing something wrong then, my monk is exceptionally good in bgs and rbgs.

Healing sphere is probably the strongest healing spell in PvP. No other class in this game can spam instant cast direct heals the way a monk can. Yea, surging mist sucks and they should probably do something about it considering what little use it gets in PvP or PvE. That doesn't make us terrible though.

PvP is all about single target healing, so the fact that you mention aoe burst as a limitation is kind of silly. Also, renewing mist + uplift is exceptionally strong in smaller settings.

While dispel spam screws over several healing specs, it doesn't really hurt a MW as much as a druid, priest or paladin because we use healing spheres so much in PvP. In 5.2 it will hurt us even less because you won't be able to purge soothing mist or life cocoon (which is the only major weakness of life cocoon atm).

Revival is an exceptionally strong CD in PvP. Being instant cast it's better then tranq or hymn in a PvP setting. Even when there's not that many people around.

Zen meditation can also be strong but I think it could use some minor buffs. You're offten interrupted before you can absorb all 5 spells as it redirects some interrupts and CC at you in addition to breaking on melee damage. If you were immune to cc and interrupts for the duration it would get far more use.

Dematerialize is just awesome. People on the other team often save our lives when they proc it.

Paralysis getting a range buff in 5.2 will let us get more use out of it.

No other healer has a short cd silence (spear hand strike).

We have a 40 yard range disarm.

Transcendence could use a few minor quality of life adjustments. The spirit needs to have its leash range removed just like a lock teleporter pad has no leash range. The teleport part really shouldn't have a cast time. I'm still not sure whey they felt the need to nerf it in beta.

We have an excellent AoE for knocking people off flags, but crane kick is probably to expensive for what it does. Perhaps a glyph that lowers the healing done but substantially lowers the cost would be nice to have in bgs.

Roll/torpedo + our glove bonus + celerity or even momentum if you prefer that gives us amazing mobility.

Overall MW are amazing in PvP. We're underrepresented because not that many people play MWs not because we're not good.
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90 Undead Monk
14140
02/18/2013 09:34 AMPosted by Cubchoo
aka, no protection against interrupts when our whole ranged healing is modeled around soothing mist.


uh....4 piece?!?!
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90 Blood Elf Monk
8360
02/18/2013 08:25 AMPosted by Cubchoo
Our only bust AoE healing is RM->Uplift.

+ revival

02/18/2013 08:25 AMPosted by Cubchoo
Because Fistweaving is not reliable at all (kited by ranged, defeats the purpose of running away from melee), we must rely on ranged healing/soothing mist to maximize our healing.

lrn2root

02/18/2013 08:25 AMPosted by Cubchoo
On top of that, we get 1 Chi. 1 Chi for 26.5k mana,

I think it would be appropriate if blizzard changed it to have a 10% chance to generate 10 chi spheres around you

02/18/2013 08:25 AMPosted by Cubchoo
Enveloping mist is a HoT that heals for a big chunk of one's health. However, the problem is its duration.

Would make more sense to have it heal over 1 second instead of your proposed 3. This would of course be effected by haste.

02/18/2013 08:26 AMPosted by Cubchoo
Once its used, were screwed. To be viable in PvP, a healer must have some way to either mitigate damage to to heal quickly.

dampen harm, diffuse magic?

02/18/2013 08:26 AMPosted by Cubchoo
MW Monks, nothing.

xuen, lot stronger than ascendence for pvp (you can't get locked out of it)

02/18/2013 08:26 AMPosted by Cubchoo
style of healing.

style of support, we're not a healing class and blizzard knows it.. think of the bard from rift, can't heal single target, but provides some awesome blanket raid heals.

02/18/2013 08:26 AMPosted by Cubchoo
PvP setting

there are always other classes... if you cared about PvP you'd know you're supposed to reroll every expansion as blizzard decimates class balance in an attempt to add more spice to the classes

02/18/2013 08:26 AMPosted by Cubchoo
Removes the Chi cost and CD of spells for the duration.

in a raid: 10 seconds after you used TFT. GO GO EMERALD DREAM HASTE TRINKETS/POTS UPLIFT SPAM GO GO GO MORE UPLIFT ONLY HAZ 5 SECONDS... oh look... you just stalled an enrage timer (for the ones that deal heavy damage instead of just onshotting you) by 5 seconds

02/18/2013 08:26 AMPosted by Cubchoo
25% of your over heals encase your ally in a healing sphere , once the ally takes damage and goes below 100% health, the healing sphere burst and heals the target for the amount.

We would go back to 5.0 numbers with that change, blizzards design intent for MW's is to blanket the raid and overheal in the hopes that there will be enough raid damage to not have your uplift go to waste.

02/18/2013 08:26 AMPosted by Cubchoo
Using Renewing Mist on your Serpent Statue will spread Renewing Mist to all targets in a 40yard radius of the Serpent Statue for 25% of the regular duration and heals for 25% of the regular amount. Grants 0 Chi. Doubles Renewing Mist CD. ( 25% of regular duration is ~4seconds, making it possible to use ~2 Uplifts if timed correctly. This may cause problems with Thunder Focus Tea.)

might as well just SCK... if you're forced to be within 25 yards you might as well be stacked

02/18/2013 08:26 AMPosted by Cubchoo
Instead of a White Tiger, summons a Red Crane (or other animal) for 45 Seconds. Red Crane acts as a second Serpent Statue and its function (Eminence, Soothing Mist). Red Crane also replicates your heals for X% of its amounts and durations, however, will stop DPS'ing if replicating your heal.

xuen already does crazy damage and heals for some of that damage... and its passive... wtf are you thinking? i would take xuen on my shaman over ascendence any day (assuming shamans got eminence for xuen).

overall you're complaining about a healing class that isn't supposed to be a healer... blizzard screwed up in 5.0, got it worse in 5.1 for 3 days, then finally got it right since then. Monks are the Bards of for wow, blizzard does not want monks to be real healers, if they did they would be addressing single target healing. Reroll if you want to heal, or respec if you want to dps, since blizz is spending all their "monk time" on making sure windwalkers take warriors throne in 5.2
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
02/18/2013 09:43 PMPosted by Imgandiloljk
can't heal single target


Healing Sphere...

Should I /facepalm, or just walk away?

EDIT: Both it looks like.

02/18/2013 09:43 PMPosted by Imgandiloljk
raid


This is a PvP thread.
Edited by Anarri on 2/18/2013 9:52 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Monk
8360
02/18/2013 09:49 PMPosted by Anarri
PvP thread

implying blizz balances solely for pvp
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90 Human Monk
7160
They got rid of the support class notion with the revamp of shaman totems and talent changed in wotlk from bc.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
8360
02/18/2013 11:09 PMPosted by Cubchoo
They got rid of the support class notion with the revamp of shaman totems and talent changed in wotlk from bc.

What do you excel at?

Disc better and more useful raid heals

So again, what do you excel at?

That's right, you're a buffer to help the real healers keep the raid alive.

Sounds like support to me.
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90 Human Monk
7160
disc actually have the worst raid heals in terms of raw hps. Disc have the best mitigation, big difference from healing.

Holy paladins excel at tank healing while still holding ground in raid heals and mitigation
Shamans bring great utility to a raid via spirit link, mana regen and aoe heals
Resto druids are the kings of aoe raid heals, followed by holy priest

as for MW monks, i personally do not know their role in a raid setting as this is a newly lvl 90 toon. I have a lvl 90 healer for each healing class, cleared in NM with a few HM kills.
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
02/18/2013 11:57 PMPosted by Cubchoo
disc actually have the worst raid heals in terms of raw hps. Disc have the best mitigation, big difference from healing.


Raw HPS isn't important, effective healing is. And Disc has the highest effective healing by a pretty large margin.

02/18/2013 11:57 PMPosted by Cubchoo
Resto druids are the kings of aoe raid heals


Nope, tied with Shamans and Mistweavers. Holy priests have been at the bottom all expansion by large margins.
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90 Human Monk
7160
02/19/2013 12:00 AMPosted by Anarri
disc actually have the worst raid heals in terms of raw hps. Disc have the best mitigation, big difference from healing.


Raw HPS isn't important, effective healing is. And Disc has the highest effective healing by a pretty large margin.

Resto druids are the kings of aoe raid heals


Nope, tied with Shamans and Mistweavers. Holy priests have been at the bottom all expansion by large margins.


Holy priest are perceived as such due to active mitigation being a huge beneficiary this tier, causing priest to spec disc. The parses don't prove anything -- just illustrates how many holy priest are not being represented.

And again with Disc, they have low effective healing (hence why its difficult for them to get a raid back up to full health) because they excel in active mitigation. The pre emptively place bubbles, spirit shells and divine aegis before incoming damage-- effectively absorbing the damage. Not healing. This causes one problem: there is less for the other healers to heal, causing their numbers on the charts to look lower. Throwing in a Holy Paladin with a substantial amount of mastery, and a healer whom relys on HPS (resto, MW) will be sniped.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
8360
02/19/2013 12:12 AMPosted by Cubchoo


Raw HPS isn't important, effective healing is. And Disc has the highest effective healing by a pretty large margin.



Nope, tied with Shamans and Mistweavers. Holy priests have been at the bottom all expansion by large margins.


Holy priest are perceived as such due to active mitigation being a huge beneficiary this tier, causing priest to spec disc. The parses don't prove anything -- just illustrates how many holy priest are not being represented.

And again with Disc, they have low effective healing (hence why its difficult for them to get a raid back up to full health) because they excel in active mitigation. The pre emptively place bubbles, spirit shells and divine aegis before incoming damage-- effectively absorbing the damage. Not healing. This causes one problem: there is less for the other healers to heal, causing their numbers on the charts to look lower. Throwing in a Holy Paladin with a substantial amount of mastery, and a healer whom relys on HPS (resto, MW) will be sniped.

disc doesn't need to worry about quickly getting people back to full. When they can spirit shell the point where a raid wide hit that would have dropped everyone to 30-40% instead only drops the raid to 80%, the raids own self heals can take care of themselves. As for garalon, still being able to hit spirit shell and mitigate a couple of second of pheremone damage is significant.
I would take absorbs over "real heals" any day of the week.
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60 Human Paladin
9900
02/18/2013 09:43 PMPosted by Imgandiloljk
lrn2root


I like that you using this to try to defend fistweaving being pvp viable. It isn't viable. And blinks, fade, lock port....yea many ways to get out of roots.

Xuen is stronger than ascendance for pvp? Good joke.

02/18/2013 11:02 PMPosted by Imgandiloljk
implying blizz balances solely for pvp


The thread is about pvp, stop throwing raids into it. There are plenty of threads about mistweaver pve, go there.
Edited by Tiara on 2/19/2013 4:46 PM PST
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85 Night Elf Druid
0
02/19/2013 12:12 AMPosted by Cubchoo
again with Disc, they have low effective healing (hence why its difficult for them to get a raid back up to full health) because they excel in active mitigation. The pre emptively place bubbles, spirit shells and divine aegis before incoming damage-- effectively absorbing the damage. Not healing.


There's literally no reason for you to point this out, the current raid environment vastly favors absorption over raw healing.
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