the impending rollercoaster

100 Night Elf Druid
14295
Another patch is headed our way. With numerous buffs, nerfs and changes. As far as my opinion goes, please make this one different. Such that the changes dont (like they have done in the past) wreck everything. Its been a constant up and down lately, one spec is overpowered, either remains untouched or gets obliterated and then another becomes king, or one that is neglected gets buffed, one that is over powered gets neglected.

Make it even blizzard. This patch has a ton of stuff coming. Numerous changes and a whole new area with raid, scenarios and quests. Make it so the game is fun for everyone.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
Lux
5930
You're not asking for much, are you? It's not like it's a button they can press and BAM everything's balanced.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9330
02/20/2013 02:53 PMPosted by Hellioning
You're not asking for much, are you? It's not like it's a button they can press and BAM everything's balanced.


After the 10 years of practice the developers have had, it really isn't too much to ask.
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85 Orc Shaman
7535
02/20/2013 02:53 PMPosted by Hellioning
You're not asking for much, are you? It's not like it's a button they can press and BAM everything's balanced.


They could with the Easy button from Staples.
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90 Undead Mage
11870
02/20/2013 03:21 PMPosted by Swampdonkeys
You're not asking for much, are you? It's not like it's a button they can press and BAM everything's balanced.


After the 10 years of practice the developers have had, it really isn't too much to ask.


They claim to have all of this data and run sims out to ridiculous numbers... then they come in with carefully crafted 50% nerf to this, 100% buff to that.

Seems legit to me.
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90 Orc Warlock
13430
Too many players, too much class/spec/content diversity. As much as they can try and balance, people will seek out and find that class/comp/spec/ability that will become the new "____ is OP GG BLIZZ."
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100 Night Elf Druid
14295
im not asking for a 0.00001% similarlity in everything. i can live with a class or spec being 1% here and there. thats not alot to ask mind you. given how long we have been at this.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
13605
02/20/2013 05:18 PMPosted by Suprêmacy
im not asking for a 0.00001% similarlity in everything. i can live with a class or spec being 1% here and there. thats not alot to ask mind you. given how long we have been at this.


Experience has nothing to do with it. It is pretty much impossible to take 23 DPS specs and balance them within 1% while keeping them unique from each other. As long as different specs have different rotations, different strengths and weaknesses, different resources, different scaling, and as long as encounters are different from each other, and drop new gear that has more stats on it, as long as player perception (both in simulated and actual encounter data) exists, things are going to be out of balance.
Edited by Samarana on 2/20/2013 5:41 PM PST
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90 Undead Mage
11870
Experience has everything to do with it. If you end beta with what you consider a balanced product, why do some specs need 20% buffs? Why do some need 20% nerfs?

This is a game. A game based on math. Balancing the specs really shouldn't be difficult to the point where the "top" spec will be 10% above the bottom creating a 5% from mid difference.

The only thing I can do is look at how things are "balanced" by Blizzard as times goes on. It seems that often they put very little thought into buffs. "Hey, hunters need more damage - ok, double serpent sting... and reduce the cost a bit - let's see how that flies"

I mean I can spend 2-3 hours looking through WoL for any given spec and come up with adjustments that will bring that spec more in line with others, and I can promise you they wouldn't be 50% nerf to this, 50% buff to that. This is the rollercoaster that the OP knows is coming. Hell, we all know its coming.
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90 Human Warlock
17825
Bliz has had the ability to perfectly balance the game all this time, just none of us thought to ASK them to do it. Thank you OP, for your priceless contribution to game balance for all time, without you, we'd never had known that people WANT balanced classes and rollercoaster balancing isn't the prefered state.

/queue real men of genius music
Edited by Thanatosia on 2/20/2013 5:57 PM PST
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100 Night Elf Hunter
13605

I mean I can spend 2-3 hours looking through WoL for any given spec and come up with adjustments that will bring that spec more in line with others, and I can promise you they wouldn't be 50% nerf to this, 50% buff to that. This is the rollercoaster that the OP knows is coming. Hell, we all know its coming.


Great, so you can fix things. Under what circumstances are your adjustments balanced? A Patchwerk fight that doesn't exist anymore? What encounter length are you adjusting to? Are you adjusting to the beginning of a tier when people are gearing up? Or when people have the new gear? How are you accounting for player perception? Players will use what it perceived as the best spec for a given situation, further skewing the analyzable data. I could go on.

You can run all the tests you want on the new numbers you come up with, but it's a near guarantee that you'll be surprised by the actual player data.

But please, enlighten us.
Edited by Samarana on 2/20/2013 6:27 PM PST
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100 Night Elf Druid
14295
you mistake me (and sheesh some of you are down right rude). i dont mean that iam some amazing programmer who knows everything and blizzard sucks. i dont mean to say that blizzard sucks either.

i can understand that bringing them extremely close is hard. but i think more can be done. steps have been taken, the hybrid tax is no longer present. many specs have been brought up from their recesses but discrepancies still exist.

e.g: a good mage vs a good monk. a mage would win, but not just by a tiny margin. a fairly large one. large being more than 2k dps or a good 3% to 5% more dmg done. no matter how well the monk plays, based on equal skill the mage will win.

besides, if we dont speak about it, then would you rather sit there qq about buffs and nerfs or twiddle your thumbs waiting for the next patch?
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90 Human Warlock
17825
you mistake me (and sheesh some of you are down right rude). i dont mean that iam some amazing programmer who knows everything and blizzard sucks. i dont mean to say that blizzard sucks either.

all your post is asking is for bliz to nail class balance absolutely perfectly. It's already their goal. It's what they would love to do. Bliz doesn't do rollercoaster class balancing because they think it's fun, they do it because it's very hard not to.

All your post is doing is yelling at someone doing a extremly difficult highwire act to 'not fall'. Yeah, it's technically good advice, but its not exactly advice that needs to be given.
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96 Night Elf Druid
19270
02/20/2013 06:16 PMPosted by Samarana
But please, enlighten us.


I can try.

You take a look at the top 15%, and the bottom 15%. The idea is the bring these 30 to the other 60-70%. For me, I think if I'm within a 3-7% of the top performer, with similar iLvls, and similar skill, then that's very balanced.

Here are the things that (if I was a Dev) I would make sure doesn't happen:
1. Scaling from gear and iLvls should be within 2-3% of each other - this prevents class stacking for the most part for any tier. Moonkins (at least I can speak from my POV) - we scale extremely well, but started very slow. This would bring us in line for major nerfs towards the end of the expansion cycle - and you can quote me on this one when it does.

2. Ranged and melee disparity should be within 10% of each other in average. When they design encounters, they should split them evenly as much as possible. Or make certain parts of a fight that clearly REQUIRE (not just favor) either ranged or melee.

3. With the infinite data that I would have, I'd go in and see which spells are the biggest culprits for the outliers - and change the scaling, cast time, and/or mastery for those very spells. This would be one of the biggest and longest tasks, and would require a motherload of going back to the drawing board and starting fresh. Something that I believe the current blizzard doesn't want to do.

4. Change PVE + PVP meta games separately. Give the colossal smash treatment to *everything*. The game and the gamers have evolved from what the devs call "too confusing". I feel that's a cover up for them not wanting to change everything - or at least a majority. For the most part, they could have tried something like this in Beta to see the possibility of it - instead of just drawing to the conclusion that "it's just not gonna work".
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100 Orc Warlock
16010
It'd be nice if they could at least finish the tuning before the patch is released, rather than what happened after 5.1.
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90 Orc Warlock
13430
Discrepancies will always exist. Hypothetically, let's say we got all the specs balanced to within 2.5% on a 5min Patchwerk encounter. Now you take encounters like Stone Guard, Wind Lord, Tsulong, Sha of Fear, Garalon, Ambershaper, Empress, all encounters with cleaves or adds or some sort of strong variation instead of "tunnel boss," and I guarantee all the balancing that went into single target will have wildly thrown off the balance in these.

Sure, Blizzard could probably balance specs to within 1% of each other, but we'd also have to give up a lot of the spec and encounter diversity we currently have. I don't know if I'd call that balance as much as I'd call it homogenization.

I do agree, Blizzard could do better, they seem a bit hesitant sometimes to make changes or revert them, but to be fair whenever something is an issue and gets "fixed," a vocal opposition rises up to complain about it. When Fire went into 5.1 outrageously high and had to be strongly nerfed, there were just as many people explaining why the nerf was wrong as there were pointing out it shouldn't have gone live as such in the first place.

Like I said before, too much spec and encounter diversity to ever achieve true "balance."

And even if they were all within 1% of each other, you'd still have everyone asking what the highest dps spec is and there would be an answer generally agreed as correct.
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90 Undead Mage
11870
02/20/2013 07:55 PMPosted by Wispurrs
But please, enlighten us.


I can try.

You take a look at the top 15%, and the bottom 15%. The idea is the bring these 30 to the other 60-70%. For me, I think if I'm within a 3-7% of the top performer, with similar iLvls, and similar skill, then that's very balanced.

[*snip]


Agree with 2, 3 and most definitely #4. #1, not so much. With everyone's mastery affecting different aspects of their class, and with each class gaining different things from different stats, this would be incredibly hard to do. I'm not saying its not possible, just very difficult.

Re: #4: If SOE can do this in a game older than WoW, and they are barely competent in anything they do, then I don't see any reason why Blizzard can't do this. It's a simple tooltip fix to make it "not scary". You have one tooltip for PvE, one for PvP. Tada!

#3 - I don't think this would actually be as much work as you think. There are only a finite number of spells used by any one spec. Even the ones who have the most "bloat" are only using 12 at most for damage in a raid environment. 12 x 23 (I think - its late, I'm tired) dps specs only leaves you 276 spells maximum to evaluate.

You can run all the tests you want on the new numbers you come up with, but it's a near guarantee that you'll be surprised by the actual player data.

But please, enlighten us.


Please read my post again. I most definitely can do better with 2-3 hours to kill than 50% buff to this and 50% nerf to that. Those aren't actual attempts to solve a problem - those are throwing !@#$ at the wall and seeing what sticks.

If you want to increase hunter dps for example, you look at why its not where you thought it would be. You don't give a 100% buff to serpent sting and call it a deal. First off, SS scales only with AP, and badly at that. The bandaid you put on hunters by doing this won't last into the next tier. So you're back to square 1. You haven't solved a damn thing, and now you've painted yourself into a corner because 1 of the specs relies heavily on this for their AoE damage.

Another example? In 5.1, Combustion for mages was adjusted so that instead of 66% of your ignite dot and 33% of your Pyro dot, it was going to be just your ignite dot - 100% of it in fact. We were told by Big Blue that it would be about the same damage as before. Remember, this is the company that assures you they test things internally and run lots and lots of sims. 5.1 hits, omg combustion is doing way too much damage (like they were told it would during the 5.1 ptr). 2 days later, it is hotfixed to now be 50% if your ignite.

They cut it in half. They didn't revert it. They claimed it would be the same - when it wasn't, they instead nerf it worse than it was 2 days earlier? So what exactly was the intent there? To keep it the same or to nerf it? You say its the same, but then make it worse than before? There was a joke thread over in the mage forums "Guess the next 50% nerf". It was popular because Blizzard has done this so many times now, it seems like their only way of doing things.

So yeah, I can say with 100% certainty that I can spend a whopping 2-3 hours and make changes that would not only make sense, but wouldn't screw me in the near future. A company that pulls in well over 150 million a month (yeah, $150 million a month) should maybe be able to invest .1% of that into balancing their game. For $150,000 a month, I will balance the %^-* out of this game. I'll work 100 hours a week, 7 days a week if I have to. Wouldn't you?
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naivety

look it up

this is the most popular mmo for a reason

it sucks not being a special snowflake

remember opinions are just that against hard facts

i dont agree with a lot of things but they do a good job
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90 Night Elf Druid
6280
Tank survivability is **THIS CLOSE** to being balanced. Like really close!

1 down, 2 to go.

PVP is a mess and can't be balanced until blizz starts disabling more abilities that just break things.
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