Grand Crusader Change

90 Human Paladin
8545
The change to Grand Crusader in order to buff avoidance relative to haste does not seem to solve the core problem. Assume for a second that avoidance and haste are equal in terms of holy power generation. We now have to consider the benefits of haste and avoidance. Avoidance will decrease total damage taken and give us a little extra survivability in terms of boss hits being dodged or parried. Haste on the other hand increases melee attack speed (which provides healing), increase the number of ticks of Sacred Shield, gives a prot paladin more control over survivability, and is a direct increase to damage. When choosing between haste and avoidance I will almost always choose haste for the gain in control.
The new format for GC has not changed anything for me because as of now I do not rely on GC for my survivability because it is inherently up to chance. I believe that most prot paladins feel the same way. So while the GC is (in theory) supposed to stop making prot paladins take dps plate with haste I do not think it will. When examining the theorycrafting that Theck does over at SacredDuty.net I noticed that once hit and expertise were both capped the difference between mastery and haste is less than 1% survivability (he uses matlab comparing strings of 5 attacks at max damage to what different gearing strategies give). When comparing haste/mastery vs avoidance the former takes approximately 5% more damage over a fight according to Theck (if someone has reason to believe his sims are wrong I would like to examine your evidence).
What does this tell us about Prot Paladins? The general consensus is to gear for control hit/exp and then haste. We are gearing this way for small gains in damage smoothing.
To sum the points above:
    1)prot paladins care about damage smoothing,
    2)we will gear this way at the expense of increased damage intake to aid healers,
    3)we do not take avoidance because it is not controllable,
    4)the new GC mechanic is still chance based.

Based on these four points, unless GC buffs avoidance to the point that it is giving me more control than haste does I will continue to use haste gear over avoidance gear.
I do however see a potential solution, I like the idea of avoidance giving resources. I think Divine Purpose should be made baseline proccing on avoids or some percentage of avoids (dependent on spec so ret would be based on melee attacks and holy would be heals, whatever works well) and some other ability should replace it. Or Divine Purpose is made baseline and the talent increases the chance of it proccing. I liked Divine Purpose in Cata, it meant that resources could be wasted by unskilled play. This proc based nature would be still semi-uncontrollable but by having it proc 3HP it adds survivability.
I am pretty sure my idea above is only half baked. However, I am sure that unless avoidance gives me equal control over my survivability I will choose haste, even at the risk of taking more damage overall.
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90 Human Paladin
8415
The change to Grand Crusader wasn't intended to push avoidance over haste. It's simply to make avoidance more valuable than it is now.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13415
Aaaarrrrgh wall of text, please format that.

Anyway,

02/20/2013 03:20 PMPosted by Sephrosenjo
So while the GC is (in theory) supposed to stop making prot paladins take dps plate with haste I do not think it will.


It wasn't. In the end, Ghostcrawler didn't want to punish players for taking Haste/Mastery gear, but he also didn't want normal tank loot to be something Paladins actively avoided (no pun intended). If you still like Haste gear, you're still welcome to use it, however with the new GC change, getting Dodge/Parry gear isn't such a detriment either.

02/20/2013 03:20 PMPosted by Sephrosenjo
I do however see a potential solution, I like the idea of avoidance giving resources.


That's effectively what the new GC is - it gives you resources via a Holy Power by using Avenger's Shield procs. It's the best of both worlds, really - more haste and/or more dodge/parry means more chances at getting a GC proc. Having Divine Purpose baseline wouldn't solve anything (and create potential problems with Holy/Ret for balancing issues). Same thing if Dodge/Parry gave 3 Holy Power instead of Divine Purpose procs - at 100% chance on avoidance or even a smaller percentage, it'd make Prot Paladins very, very overpowered, especially on multi-add fights.

Long story short, you can still use Haste gear, but Dodge/Parry are now decent to have as stats as well.
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90 Human Paladin
8545
Now that I have stepped back and thought about my argument I get why Divine Purpose is a poor solution. That does not however change the main point of my argument I understand that GC makes dodge/parry "useful" but my point is, by and large we are going for haste after hit/exp on a very slim margin of survivability. I think the only way to keep paladins avoiding avoidance (pun intended) is to make it actually good. The goal stated by GhostCrawler was to not make everyone's haste gear worthless while buffing avoidance so it wasnt horrid for prot. I still think it is not up to snuff in comparison to haste. I gain survivability in way of healing and absorbs and dps from haste.

I think in order to consider avoidance as a prot paladin in the context of active mitigation there must be a survivability gain over haste. There needs to be some sort of tradeoff where avoidance is more survivability and haste is more dps. Currently the scale is tipped in favor of haste because it provides both better than avoidance. If there were a tradeoff we would have to examine our stat priorities a little harder.
Edited by Sephrosenjo on 2/20/2013 4:55 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
8415
You've already said why avoidance is "meh": it's uncontrollable. It's already better for pure damage reduction than haste or mastery, but that doesn't help its value very much. Even Brewmasters, with their 80%+ avoidance during Elusive Brew, can fail to avoid every attack for its duration.

We are never going to value avoidance as long as it's uncontrollable. Even if they nerfed haste and mastery to the ground, we'd just go back to stacking stamina like in previous expansions.

The fact is that it's very difficult as a tank to avoid having avoidance on our gear. All the Grand Crusader change is meant to do is make that unavoidable avoidance less undesirable.
Edited by Keten on 2/20/2013 4:52 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
8545
I changed my reply above while you were responding Keten.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13415
Knowing Blizzard, right now that's not something they can do in the lifetime of this expansion. They only just got the Active Mitigation model working, and I doubt they'll mess with it now what with everything else they need to balance.

It's not a bad thing, really. And we're not the only ones dealing with the uncontrollable nature of Parry/Dodge for the most part, anyway, but really, they're not such bad things to have, it's just Haste and Mastery have such a higher value, and in this case I don't mind the status quo for the moment.
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90 Human Paladin
8415
Given that avoidance already grants higher total damage reduction than haste or mastery, I don't think your edit changes my last reply at all. Avoidance is always going to be undesirable as long as it's unreliable.
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1 Pandaren Rogue
0
02/20/2013 04:34 PMPosted by Sephrosenjo
The goal stated by GhostCrawler was to not make everyone's haste gear worthless while buffing avoidance so it wasnt horrid for prot. I still think it is not up to snuff in comparison to haste. I gain survivability in way of healing and absorbs and dps from haste.


The changes to GC are a small step. This is a good thing. We don't need them to go overboard, like they tend to do, and overnerf/buff something.
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90 Human Paladin
9970
The GC change will, indeed, not prevent anybody from preferring haste. It's not SUPPOSED to. It's just supposed to make tank gear less thoroughly unattractive. Which it does.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11985
The change to Grand Crusader wasn't intended to push avoidance over haste. It's simply to make avoidance more valuable than it is now.


In fact it was. Blizzard stated they didn't like that prot paladins used "DPS" plate gear in most situations to tank. That it wasn't fair to the dk's/ret paladins who were getting passed up.
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90 Blood Elf Monk
10155
02/20/2013 11:37 PMPosted by Gummybeaar
The change to Grand Crusader wasn't intended to push avoidance over haste. It's simply to make avoidance more valuable than it is now.


In fact it was. Blizzard stated they didn't like that prot paladins used "DPS" plate gear in most situations to tank. That it wasn't fair to the dk's/ret paladins who were getting passed up.


And yet they make the 2 leather tanks share gear with 3 dps specs.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13415
02/20/2013 11:37 PMPosted by Gummybeaar
In fact it was. Blizzard stated they didn't like that prot paladins used "DPS" plate gear in most situations to tank. That it wasn't fair to the dk's/ret paladins who were getting passed up.


It wasn't. They were worried about it intially, yes, but GC later clarified (after all the Prot Paladins providing feedback about how much they loved the Haste mechanic) that they didn't want to punish the players who preferred this new method of gearing, but merely make avoidance not so unattractive.

To stave off the controversial Protection haste issue, we are making a chance to Grand Crusader to proc from dodge and parry at 30% instead of CS and HotR at 20%. This will improve dodge and parry slightly for active mitigation purposes without negating the +haste slant that many paladins have taken.


No, you shouldn't have to give up all your haste gear. This change should just let any dodge or parry you do accumulate be more attractive.
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90 Human Paladin
8545
Thank you everyone for contributing to the conversation. I would like to direct the conversation in a slightly different direction having read everyone's replies.

Avoidance has no real place in active mitigation as of now. 5.2 will change this making avoidance contribute a small amount to our mitigation. All of this I have said before. While acknowledging that Blizz is unlikely to make drastic changes mid-expansion I would like to see something like what follows implemented. Take avoidance and haste as our examples. Currently haste contributes both an increase in mitigation as well as an increase in dps. I propose moving either mitigation or dps to avoidance. Have both haste and avoidance contribute both mitigation and dps but have them contribute different amounts. Lets say haste is our mitigation stat and avoidance be our dps stat (bear with me). For our purposes let haste contribute 2 mitigation 'points' for every 1 dps 'point.' Avoidance would be vice versa with 1 mitigation and 2 dps.

This breakdown gives us a choice: "do I sacrifice survivability for dps?" I would welcome a choice like this where the goal is to have enough mitigation to live and then the rest goes in to dps. This would mean that our mitigation stat (haste in the example) is our better tanking stat for damage smoothing (which is our current goal). We would stack this until we felt comfortable with our survivability and then move over to our dps stat (avoidance in the example).

There are a few reasons which I like this in theory (the details can always change).
1) It gives us a choice about how we want to gear.
2) Playing in a more skilled manner and with fewer messups means we can gear for more dps.
3) A choice setup in this manner places prot paladins in a similar situation to healers with spirit. While spirit is not the best stat for throughput it is required for healers. But how much is required is totally up the comfort of the healer. As a healer you need enough spirit to get you to the end of the fight and not a bit more. As a prot paladin we would have to balance how much survivability we need to complete the fight vs making the fight faster (and for dps !@#$%s like me how many dps in the raid I can beat).
5) This means there is no universal best stat; stats become relative to the player.

Though I said details could and probably should change I would like to provide an idea for what to do with avoidance and haste. I think haste is fine the way it is. It provides both mitigation and dps in good amounts (Theck places haste at top behind hit and expertise in both categories); but importantly the dps is secondary to the survival gains (for me at least). Given that haste is our mitigation stat avoidance becomes our dps increase stat (which seems odd but it makes sense further down).

To buff avoidance I would propose having a straight percent damage buff to the next ability within 5 seconds (time is up to what is balanced) when an attack is dodged/parried. This of course would have to have some sort of internal CD for AOE tanking presumably 5 sec or whatever duration is chosen. This buff in my opinion needs to be a 'next ability' scenario because it means once again that skillful play will get more mileage out of it. Using this buff on an ability like CS (which hits like a wet noodle) would benefit from the buff but would benefit less than using it on consecrate. Our attack priority for dps at 100k vengeance is CS>J>AS+>Cons>ES>AS>HW>SotR (courtesy of sacredduty.net). CS, J, AS+ are in front to maintain survivability but of those only avenger's shield is up there for max dps and survivability (AS glyphed for single target hits the hardest). I am unsure of what percent the buff should be but it needs to be high enough that there is a noticeable difference in dps between haste and avoidance (remember avoidance has become our dps stat), but not so high it becomes worthwhile 100% of the time to forsake haste for the dps increase.

I think that having a dps buff wont be as big of a problem as one might think because some of the buff will have to be used to maintain SotR via hp generation. In addition, the buff on/off time is not controllable so anything less than perfect play will have procs 'wasted' on low dps abilities like CS. Third, also because it is tied to chance gearing this way will be a gamble of sorts on good luck. This third point raises an interesting objection: we have already acknowledged haste better than avoidance because of its gains in control, so why would we sacrifice the definite dps gain from haste for a spotty dps gain from avoidance. I think the response is that the buff has to be large enough that the gamble is worth it (based on skill of course) and that by and large I think avoidance would still be secondary to haste but where a paladin swaps over is dependent on comfort level with survivability.

I am sure that there are problems with my example above. The goal however is to ultimately provide prot paladins with real gearing choices that are influenced by skill level (of both the tank and their raid), playstyle, and gear available. Let me know what you think.
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90 Human Paladin
16115
First off, there is no "Core Problem." Protection Paladin tanking is in a good place both from a mechanical and a performance standpoint. Personally I enjoy the new style of tanking immensely, and the only people I've encountered in-game with issues with it long for the "good old days" of passive fixed rotation tanking from BC. I don't see it, but they are entitled to their opinion and can still do well gearing by focusing on defensive stats.

Second, Grand Crusader is already a damage buff. Over the course of a long fight, it will increase our damage by some percentage that I'm sure Blizzard is tracking. So what you're asking for is instead of that damage increase coming in chunks that we actively have the opportunity to use, that it instead be a constant percentage increase. Sorry, but I find Grand Crusader to be more engaging and the procs fun as they contribute to the active feel of the way the spec handles.

No thanks.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
14960
02/22/2013 03:59 PMPosted by Sephrosenjo
This breakdown gives us a choice: "do I sacrifice survivability for dps?" I would welcome a choice like this where the goal is to have enough mitigation to live and then the rest goes in to dps. This would mean that our mitigation stat (haste in the example) is our better tanking stat for damage smoothing (which is our current goal). We would stack this until we felt comfortable with our survivability and then move over to our dps stat (avoidance in the example).
I doubt that would actually happen though. Back in the stam-stacking days how often did tanks decide that because they now had enough stam to comfortably survive bosses that they'd then start to gem or enchant for strength for extra damage? It just didn't really happen. You stacked stam (survivability) as high as possible and only turned to strength/hit/exp if you were having threat issues.

The same would be true now, if one stat was better for mitigation/survival and another was better for dps then tanks would just stack the mitigation/survival as high as they could, they'd never reach a point where they decided they had enough and could sacrifice it for more damage. The only reason why damage is really a consideration now is because haste hit and expertise are both the best choices for mitigation as well as damage.
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90 Human Paladin
8560
All this change does is make tanks a little more RNG than they were before.

As we are aware, blizzard likes RNG because they say we like it.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
14960
All this change does is make tanks a little more RNG than they were before.

As we are aware, blizzard likes RNG because they say we like it.
How is it any more rng than now? GC is a random proc now and it'll be a random proc after the change. As long as the average frequency of the proc remains the same there's really no difference (and a little napkin math indicates that they are very close). The only difference is that instead of that frequency being increased by haste it'll increase with dodge and parry.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13415
02/23/2013 12:54 PMPosted by Pancakê
The only difference is that instead of that frequency being increased by haste it'll increase with dodge and parry.


Well, technically it'll be increased by both haste and dodge/parry (GC still has a chance to proc from CS/HotR alongside the Dodge/Parry buff), but basically, everything you've said is true. A little RNG is not a bad thing.
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90 Human Paladin
8560
All this change does is make tanks a little more RNG than they were before.

As we are aware, blizzard likes RNG because they say we like it.
How is it any more rng than now? GC is a random proc now and it'll be a random proc after the change. As long as the average frequency of the proc remains the same there's really no difference (and a little napkin math indicates that they are very close). The only difference is that instead of that frequency being increased by haste it'll increase with dodge and parry.


While this is true, it does limit you in the case of fights that you are not going to dodge anything at all.

Fights in wich no melee attacks exist and thus this is a nerf.
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