Topic Resto druid pve continue
Edited by Fleurs on 2/27/13 5:00 PM (PST)
GC isn't always right, raidbots does not present the problem, top guilds rely on classes that are catered towards the content: every class but druids. Doesn't mean druids are bad or even "behind". It means the environment is one in which we cannot perform our best. And you wanna know why? Because every single class has aoe heals now, all of which are not a slow, "heal over time", spell like a druid's. They are fast and bursty.
The point of distinction is that you argue druids are "heavily" behind, and cite Ghostcrawler saying the same. Just being "behind", though, isn't good enough - not everyone can be ahead of the curve after all. What you need is to find a statement that druids are "heavily" behind other healers, and not only that but that it's due to severe druid undertuning instead of overtuning certain other specs like Discipline or Holy Paladin. Since the latter is why the situation actually exists, instead of this expansion just being the death knell for resto druids, hyperbole like "resto druids are heavily behind" is just misleading and useless. Once blanket absorptions are cut down and with some minor buffs and quality of life changes for you, the disparity between you and the top healer will be a lot less stark.
This is not in fact a university paper. You are free to distort quotes, call your naysayers names and refuse to back up even the most basic assertions in your post.
Good luck with that!
Which is what I said in my other thread. That the current healing profile coupled with the fact that druids seem to be stuck under their old Cata triage paradigm means they have issues.
As I've already said, the devs almost never come out and say that a spec is heavily behind, even when they are. Generally the devs even mentioning a spec being behind without some sort of qualifier shows a big problem. You need to read between the lines a little.
So...by your logic Elemental shamans, MM hunters and Arms warriors are perfectly fine dps specs because no dev has specifically laid out that they are awful?
This is not in fact a university paper. You are free to distort quotes, call your naysayers names and refuse to back up even the most basic assertions in your post.Good luck with that!
And you are free to act like a gigantic douche without providing anything at all to the discussion. This is the internet, after all.
Edited by Sugarhots on 2/27/13 10:28 PM (PST)
Exactly, as i said, hots class is going no where with all these absorbing/direct aoe heals. Funny thing is blizzard is trying to give us a mushroom that cost 4 GCD to compansate for it, plus, it has to be bloomed on fixed locations, srsly did monks suck someone to get uplift free smart heal? Good job blizzard.
No to mention you need to wait rej to charge the mushroom, who need a 6-10 secs BIG heal? And you need to ask people to stand in it? They forgot how light well failed hard. lol
I've been asking for this for ages, but Blizzard needs to turn mushrooms into something like the new Lightspring - absorbing overhealing and then dishing it out as smart-healing.
Considering your progression, I'm surprised you have this complaint. Are your raiders not the brightest?
Small buffs? Resto Druids weak? HoTS not making sense? I am sorry but where are you coming from I mean this makes no sense. Have you played resto in PTR of heroic / normal 25 man content. We are great, our 2 set is super on the 25 man aspect. Alot of the heroic fights in Thunder King involve a ton of raid damage and alot of constant damage. Not to mention the SOTF increase to 75% allows a greater swiftmend/WG burst healer type approach. We can reach the 5700ish haste breakpoint for the next SOTF WG I seriously don't see why we have any reason to complain in 5.2 or probably the rest of this xpac. Resto druids always scale better the farther content goes. I am more excited for 5.2 than I have been for a raid in awhile.
I'm finding in some of the heroics like empress and protectors (and presumably sha but we have not progressed that far yet) that I need a crap ton of spirit because in 10s we are expected to tank heal and in some cases that means a lot of regrowth spam just to keep a tank from dying in 5 seconds. Perhaps somewhat surprisingly our layered HoTs do not quite cut it in the heroic version of GC's triage healing model.
Edited by Tonydanza on 2/28/13 2:40 AM (PST)
So...+1 target healed, making it 4 targets, somehow makes this suddenly super for 25m?
+1 on 25man is rather...lol. C'mon man.
Honestly that notion is so hilariously uneducated and has me dumbfounded....How could you ever think that is "super" for 25man..
Honestly, It's pretty nice for 10m. It's a needle in a haystack for 25m. Nothing more.
Not to mention your misinformation on sotf...25% buff to sotf, with our current haste breakpoints and the stats we would have to give up to reach said breakpoints...Mathematically it's a net loss to even reach further haste levels for one talent that effects one spell.
Pumping haste (past 3043 BP) is a total fail and net loss in every situation until we can do it without gemming it and reforging a large majority of our gear. Until we reach a tier where this can come mostly naturally - it's a big throughput loss.
And this is further compounded by mushrooms, IF...* IF * they become quite viable. Mushrooms vastly reduce the value of haste to us. Run a heavy and unoptimized haste build just for sotf = far weaker rejuvs, less spirit to allow rejuv spamming = far longer ramp up time for an already terribly clunky mushroom. The last thing we need is longer ramp up on those. This is assuming if mushrooms become worthwhile/viable on several encounters.
Edited by Sàtàn on 2/28/13 1:55 AM (PST)
You sir have no idea of what you are talking about.
You said 5700ish haste breakpoint with SoTF?! Are you insane?
It was already showed that mathematically speaking the next haste breakpoint is a HPS LOSS.
The only point it would be a gain was if we could reach 3989 Haste with all of our haste reforged out.
Do you even know that Haste is made WORSE if you go for SoTF, not better?
Its simple math:
Wild Growth with 0 Haste = 7 Ticks
Wild Growth with 3043 Haste = 8 Ticks
Wild Growth with 6652 Haste = 9 Ticks
Wild Growth with 3043 Haste and SoTF = 14 Ticks
Widl Growth with 5437 Haste and SoTF = 15 Ticks
Going from 0 to 3043 costs 3043 of Haste stats, and gives you (8/7 - 1)% extra healing on WG.
Thats ~14,28%, or a ~0,00469% more healing per point of Haste invested.
Going from 3043 to 6652 costs 3609 of Haste stats, and gives you (9/8 -1)% extra healing.
Thats 12,5%, or a ~0,00346% more healing per point of Haste invested over 3043.
Going from 0 to 6652 costs 6652 of Haste stats, and gives you (9/7 -1)% extra healing.
Thats ~28,57%, or a ~0,00429% more healing per point of Haste invested.
Going from 3043 Haste without SoTF, to 3043 with SoTF gives you (14/8 -1)% extra healing.
Thats 75% more healing from having SoTF buff during WG cast.
Going from 3043 Haste with SoTF to 5437 costs 2394 of Haste stats, and gives you (15/14 -1)% extra healing
Thats ~7,14%, or a 0,00298% more healing per point of Haste invested.
And that is the worse gain by far.
Going to 3043 gives you 14,28% more healing on WG, exactly twice of what is gained from getting the second haste cap to SoTF, and it will only work when SoTF buffed.
Costing you 2394 of haste to a gain of only 7,14% is really poor.
That same amount of mastery would give you ~5% of Mastery to all your spells.
If you already have 25% of mastery, this would increase your healing to 130/125, or 4%
Wild growth needs to be at last ~56% of our total healing done, to be on par with Mastery to make it worth the amount of mastery expended. And that is counting that ALL WG is SOTF buffed, and that is not true, so again this is even worse.
So do i really need to continue and make the math for 6652?
So, no, going for haste is not better, will not be better and new tiers will not change that wile we can still reforge out of it enough to still be lower them 3989 of haste.
If you cannot understand why i said about this 3989 magical number, is because if you already have 3989 of haste anyway, you would only need extra 2663 to reach the next cap, not 3609. Making it have the same net gain of healing for WG from going to 0 to 3043 haste.
And lets remember that we go for 3043 because of 3029 Reju tick and not for WG, so if you take the mathematically serious its WAY worse then this, and probably we would need more them 5k of unreforgeable haste to really make it worth it going for 6652.
So please stop spreading misinformation.
The 75% from SoTF, will give us exactly 75% more healing on WG. Good but not that burst-y like you are trying to imply.
The Two-piece bonus is WAY worse then last tier 2pc, so idk what you are talking about. It will help WAY less then our last tier 2pc helped during progression, and 1 more target on SM is pathetic buff to 25m.
We are not doomed, and we are not unplayable, but surely we should take your words with a lot of care because you fail to know the basics of the class you are trying to convince us that is amazing right now on PTR, wile all of us that also tested our druids on it are seeing much different things...
How sad is that; we have to use another CD or a talent to get efficient use out of our big healing CD.
Edited by Pepe on 2/28/13 9:02 AM (PST)
I still don't see how you can sit there and say that. Did you test heroics yesterday? We do a great job in every fight in 5.2 and on heroic its even better. Our test group ran with 2 resto druids, 2 disc, and 2 pallies. The healing was pretty balanced imo and seems like possibly every class but maybe mistweaver with all the changes is doing extremely well. Not to mention I understand the old 2 set is very good and I have every intention to use it in heroic progression....Keeping the 2 set 517 T14 coupled with the 2 set T15 is what alot of resto druids are going to be doing in heroic progression. So if you think otherwise thats okay, but I am pretty sure there is a good reason many guilds are scrambling to find good resto druids.
But unless they do a complete class overhaul I don't think your ever going to see what your expecting.
Edited by Tripcy on 2/28/13 3:25 PM (PST)
Nice math on the 3043 haste breakpoint. I will agree with you 100% that mastery is far superior in overall HPS output beyond 3043. However with your Freakishly slow ticks on all your HoTs, all that extra healing out put will end up going to overheals... I've tried both builds and with my current raid comp; Hpally and Disc, i find that the 5730 haste break point is far more efficient at delivering heals. I helps make up for our lack of burst, and i find myself in a more comfortable spot for both healing throughput and mana, since i dont have to blanket rejuvs quite as much. As a bonus, it also makes the class a lot less boring to play... spamming that one button.
On a side note... it never ceases to amaze me that every druid that thinks we are completely terrible are the ones that are still using Incarceration instead of SotF.
Avoiding snipping by having faster heals only causes other healers to overheal for the same amount. So you are not contributing to your raid, but caring about recount.
How reducing your HPS is better for you lack of burst? You are not compressing enough your HoT ticks to make it any faster to produce a burst of better HPS, instead you are just reducing your overall HP/s so reducing your ability to deal with bursts.
And why having more haste enables you to avoid using rejuvenation?
Your WG will heal for ~4,6% more them a full mastery WG, and thats a so insignificant amount that will not accomplish even one tick of a rejuvenation, let alone enough to make you reduce the necessary number of rejuvenation's casted.
Its all in your mind, placebo effect, you think that you need less reju, and use it less simple as that, not an actual mathematical fact.
I'd like to point you that SoTF is not that great of a talent as some might think, its good, but its being buffed now, because it was too weak in comparison with the other talents in the same tier.
Now in 5.2 you will see more people using it.
Maybe its not that we that use Incarnation think that druids suck, but people that doesn't know math, and theorycrafting, that goes all by "feeling" that think that a healer that is receiving 10% on all heals, mushroom redesign and mana cost reduction, was OK in last tier.
So probably you made absolutely no teorycrafting about your class, and have no ideia why you chose each of your talents, just guesses and "feelings", and want to discuss with people that actually did the logical process necessary to come with a true argument about it.
This statement is another huge example of fallacy.
You could be carried by your core great healers, for an example, and think mighty about yourself.
You can be a good player, even an great one, and have 0 notion about teorycrafting and math.
You can be the girlfriend of your GM, or Raid Leader, and keep your spot on top raid that way.
You can be the boyfriend of your GM, or Raid Leader, and keep your spot on top raid that way.
You can be old IRL friend of your GM, or Raid Leader, and keep your spot on top raid that way.
Want me to continue giving examples why arguments of authority have no real meaning in a discussion?
The fact that top guilds were not using a resto druid this tier, and that all top guild players were talking about how they screwed druids, and how the loss of replenishment hit the class heavy.
So if you want to use an argument of authority think again because you will lose even in this ground.
The fact stands, what matters is how our class fairs in actual raiding, but when looked upon inquisitive and rational point of view, based on logic, math, and the acquisition of varied number of sources of data, not the actual feelings of one individual in an specific ambient, with no real variety, and no real way to isolate the meaningful variable to reach a causal explanation.